Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): This is Transformational Pediatrics with
Children's Mercy, Kansas City.
I am your host, Dr.
Sarah Gora.
Today we have a panel discussion for the exciting flash scanner and I
invite you to listen in as we discuss.
Joining me today is Dr.
St.
Kate Shaw, medical Director of Echocardiography and co-Director
of Non-Invasive Imaging at Children's Mercy and Dr.
Aaron offer Vice Chair of Radiology and Section Chief of
Cardiac Imaging at Children's
Mercy.
Hello and welcome.
Dr Sanket Shah: Thank you, Dr.
Dr Erin Opfer: Hello.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): I'm so excited to talk to you about
some of this innovative imaging.
Dr.
Er, what problems were existing beforehand that the new FLA scanner protocols solved,
and how did they change clinical practice compared to earlier imaging technology?
Dr Erin Opfer: So with our new flash scanner, it offers us benefits that the
older dual source scanner, which we had, did not give us, in regards to, lower
radiation exposure, with the new photon and flash modes, and, ability to do some
of the scans, without the use of sedation.
So, it really has helped us in some populations to be able to
scan faster, without, as much need for sedation and, less radiation.
so we still can get all the same imaging that we used to get in the past, but,
in a little bit, safer way and faster.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That sounds incredible.
So Dr.
Sha, what are some of the primary applications of using this innovative
technology in pediatric cardiology and how is it different from
traditional cardiac imaging technology?
Dr Sanket Shah: so, CT scan has, And the new flash scan has revolutionized
the imaging in congenital heart disease in pediatric cardiology.
we find it.
Extremely valuable in our most challenging patient's, which we call our single
ventricle group of cardiology patient's, where, one of the two pumping chambers or
ventricles is very hypoplastic or small and not able to do the job, And we have to
do a series of surgeries or interventions to make the circulation work.
our group, recently presented this data at the Radiology Society in North America.
Educational exhibit on how we have used this in each step of the way for the
single ventricle, surgical palliations, and optimized care and outcomes.
It has led to quicker diagnostics and improved outcomes.
And in especially in this population, it has also, Improve our imaging
for neonates and, other, infants where we are able to do the scans
without anesthesia or breath holds.
So, it has been very, patient friendly and gentle imaging and, and still very
diagnostic and highly, accurate with the resolution of less than half a millimeter.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That sounds like a wonderful balance to, better
improve health outcomes and be better for patient experience as well.
Dr.
Er, do you see this technology changing how often flash scanners are
chosen over other imaging modalities?
Dr Erin Opfer: when we say flash scanner, it's one mode that the, scanner can do.
Really what we're talking most about is the photon counting, which is a different,
way to scan than the conventional cts.
So the photon counting cts really.
Redefine what a CT can do, and will allow us to image with those lower
radiation doses as well as, some increased what we call contrast
resolution or spatial resolution, which means how sharp those images are.
So, when people are.
Talking about getting new scanners at different institutions.
I really feel like the photon counting.
Cts are going to be, sought after more than the other conventional cts,
because of some of these benefits that they, allow to what we would've seen in
traditional, more conventional imaging.
with all of these benefits of reduced dose, faster scanning and better
spatial resolution in the images.
Dr Sanket Shah: Yeah.
Dr.
Gobar, if I could add to your point.
I think so because of the lower radiation in, the neo photon counting ct, we have
used it in valve planning surgeries.
Uh, instead of MRI, our MRI magnet is very busy and, we not only get
precise anatomical information but also we have used now this with lower
radiation for functional, information that, MRI used to provide us.
So, it is supplementing, and complimenting our other imaging
techniques, in a good way.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That sounds wonderful.
So that leads me to the question about working with multidisciplinary teams.
How easy has it been to integrate this new technology?
Has it been more collaborative, or have you encountered.
Challenges.
Dr Erin Opfer: since we've gotten our new photon counting ct, scanner
And we just got it in May, it really has been a great collaborative.
Especially with the cardiology department, developing how we can best use that
scanner, which ways that we're gonna protocol and scan patient's with it.
And we have started, a collaborative approach where
we both will help, determine.
What is The best way to image each individual patient is we'll have a
discussion between the two teams.
once we get the imaging, we both review the imaging So, It has both a cardiologist
and a radiologist reviewing the images and putting in a combined collaborative
report, which I think is the best of both worlds and really is, beneficial
for the patient's to have both inputs, for their imaging and their reporting.
Dr Sanket Shah: I couldn't agree more.
I think, this has fostered more collaboration and, our patient's at the
end of the day are the most beneficiaries of having, inputs and expertise from
two different, specialties, kind of working in as a team for their best
outcomes and best, clinical care.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That's so wonderful to hear about the
collaboration between your specialties.
Dr.
Shock, can you tell us more about the clinical impact you've seen on families,
specifically with kids in cardiology?
Dr Sanket Shah: So, a couple of cases from my own individual patient's in
the last couple months come to mind.
we had a child, on our cardiology floor who.
on echo imaging, we suspected that there is limited blood flow or no
significant blood flow to the left lung.
and it was Friday at 4:00 PM and I called Dr.
And, and they were able to get a CT scan done, right away.
And that confirmed that there was no blood flow going to the left lung.
And the child actually went to the operating room Friday night.
recovered in the ICU, over the weekend and, was back on the cardiology
floor Monday after the blood flow was established And that just stay
fantastic care, you know, the child.
Was not or asymptomatic.
And, without the CT scan, the child probably could have stayed a couple
more days in the hospital till we would've been able to diagnose
and, offer surgery and, that just.
optimize not only the patient's care, but hospital's resources.
The child was able to go home sooner And that bed was freed up for another patient.
And, we were able to, do what an ideal heart center And the hospital should do
in our pediatric imaging and cardiac care.
So That is one example.
And the second example, I would say.
I have a patient that's signed up actually for CT scan tomorrow,
who is, under five years of age.
And typically we would have to use anesthesia for that, for coronary imaging.
And this one, with the, the.
Speed and accuracy of the photon counting ct.
we are gonna be able to avoid the use of anesthesia, which is gonna make this as a,
smooth patient experience and, less use of resources and time for the hospital to get
the same amount as the same testing done.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That's amazing.
It sounds.
You're able to deliver essential care with much better outcomes.
both of you mentioned the reduction in sedation, Dr.
Er, how does faster scanning, And this technology reduce or
eliminate that need for sedation?
Dr Erin Opfer: so a lot of times, with, some of our.
Older, conventional cts.
the exam can, take longer time.
It's, it's still a quick exam, but with the new photon and
flash modes, it's much quicker.
So we can do some of these scans, which we might have had to sedate the patient and,
hold their breath artificially for them.
By free breathing.
Now with the new faster scanner, because instead of taking maybe two
to five seconds for a CT scan, on our previous scanner, this scan may be less
than a second, to obtain all the data.
And so you can do that without needing to hold the patient's breath because
that, Imaging acquisition is so quick.
so patient's you might have typically had to sedate you no longer have to sedate.
same thing with moving artifacts.
longer scans mean that if a patient moves, that you're gonna see that in
your images and cause some blurring.
And so with.
Super quick, scan.
you don't need to sedate them because the imaging happens, that quick.
And then when we're talking about cardiac patient's, we're also having to.
Take into account how fast their heart is beating.
And so, these faster scan acquisitions, can also be done with children that
have higher heart rates and younger children tend to have higher heart rates.
So we can image even very small children without needing to sedate or.
use any methods to decrease their heart rate.
And so we can, get all that information, without the need to
do those things in at even lower dose than what we used to before.
So a lot of benefits to this new technology.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That's incredible.
Dr.
Shaw, do all of these benefits change how your department, um,
screens, does it change diagnostic pathways or any guidelines for you?
Dr Sanket Shah: Yes.
one, I think changes, since we can all get this quickly and easily.
Some of our out of town patient's, for example, they
don't have to make multiple trips.
They can kind of get this test done the day before surgery and,
we have the data right there to review, or the day of surgery.
And, there are certain conditions where, just.
To give an example of one is interrupted aortic arch where the
ascending and descending aorta, have an interruption in the middle
somewhere, is one condition where it wasn't, considered, appropriate use for
imaging and I would own internal data.
And that we presented at, conferences.
We've shown that, CT scan, this was, us presenting at the, world Congress
of pediatric cardiology and pediatric cardiac surgery in Hong Kong last
month that showed, there was reduced, mortality and reduce, reoperation.
when CT scan was used for surgical planning for this particular condition.
So I think it is gonna change guidelines in, some of these complex
of incorporating use of CT scan in, that, surgical decision-making.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): Amazing.
So with.
Changes in surgical decision-making, how much does image quality impact what, uh,
physicians can distinguish now that they couldn't before using this technology?
Dr.
Offerer, can you weigh in on that?
Dr Erin Opfer: well, some of the things that we might be able to distinguish
better are, patient's that have implants or, any indwelling metal.
we can see those better with the, photon counting, CT than we
could with our conventional, Cts.
And the image quality, that we get really can impact how the, surgeons, can
see the anatomy before they go in, to.
do any, surgical procedures on these patient's.
They have a good understanding of what the anatomy is, before
they even attempt anything.
and Dr.
Shaw may be able to expand a little bit more on that of how
they use these images clinically,
Dr Sanket Shah: one of the prime examples I find is in our neonate,
with, coarctation of the aorta, where in addition to the coarctation,
oftentimes the transverse aortic arch has hypoplasia, and That is a key
determinant of the surgery needing.
Heart lung bypass machine, a cardiopulmonary bypass support or not.
And also the approach, whether the surgeons approach it from the front of
the chest through a median sternotomy or through a posterolateral thoracotomy
for just the coarctation repair.
And I think.
on the new photon counting, alpha ct with the flash protocol, we've been able to
get these images without breath holes on this neonates without anesthesia.
And that has led to, fantastic repair planning and with minimal
residual aortic disease and.
I think that those patient's and our surgeons, have a very low threshold now of
obtaining this in case of the borderline size of the transfer arch So I think it
has helped, in the smallest, the best.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): That's amazing.
It sounds like it can help quite a lot of patient's.
Which leads me to my next question.
Which patient population do you both think would benefit the most from
photon counting CT today and why?
Dr Erin Opfer: so of the patient's that we scan, specifically
of the cardiac patient's.
Like I previously mentioned, patient's with implants or stents, the photon
counting CT is helpful seeing through those, patient's with small
structures like, coronaries, we can see those due to the, better spatial
resolution and, image sharpness.
also any radio sensitive patient's, patient's that might be getting multiple
cts over the course of their treatment, including the congenital heart disease
patient's or, oncology patient's that might get multiple, cts over the course
of their life because of the lower radiation with the photon counting, ct.
Those are the patient's that populations that I think are probably
the best, with this newer technology.
Dr Sanket Shah: I would add to that.
Is, a wide variety of congenital heart disease spectrum that would
benefit from this, but to just, to name a few is gonna be, several
complex coronary artery disease, congenital coronary anomaly patient's.
any, uh.
Potential valve planning, operation or procedures in the cath lab.
Now it's part of, the diagnostic armamentarium to obtain a CT scan,
anybody for re, reduced sternotomy if there's a repeat surgery, a
second or third open heart surgery.
The surgeons.
Benefit by knowing how much is the space between the sternum And the
heart to, do the operation safely?
The adult congenital heart disease population.
Now, as, many of your listeners may know, there are more adults with
congenital heart disease than pediatric patient's with congenital heart disease
in those patient's, Traditionally have limited echo windows and, CT scan
is, very, very important for defining their anatomy And in a lot of cases
their physiology and function as well.
and I think, the aortic anomalies and coase type we talked about,
but in general, there are only a few cases now that, the CT scans
may not be helpful that much.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): Dr.
Shaw, as you are training physicians and residents on using this technology.
Are there any technical considerations or steep learning curve that they
should keep in mind for better outcomes?
Dr Sanket Shah: Yeah, I think with any new modality, I think the, one of the things
I emphasize, our trainees is to kind of learn the limitations and pitfalls.
I mean, it is wonderful and has very limited pitfalls but at the
same time, for any modality or diagnostic tool, you have to make
sure that you know that, but also.
No, the, the mechanisms of how, how this technology work and works and how
to optimize it because our patient's have unique challenges like Dr.
Fer mentioned about moving heart faster, heart rates, in how to,
work with, that physiology and, the features that the technology has.
So those, are some things that I emphasize to our trainees.
Dr Erin Opfer: I would add to that, that a lot of the, congenital heart
patient's, each of them are complex.
And so, teaching the residents and, fellows, this technology, you have to
be able to think critically and, adapt.
How you're going to image each one, individually, to be able to best
optimize visualizing the structures that would be clinically important.
so walking them through how to think, about those imaging and how
to give contrast, is important.
Dr Sanket Shah: I would totally with this, you know.
Not only, where the IV needs to be and how much contrast And what
kind of dilution of the contrast.
And in some of these cases we have used them on while they are on heart lung
bypass machine kind of ECMO machines.
and how to, you know, coordinate.
Ecmo, circulation while the CT scan is being performed.
Those are, highly, deliberate tests.
So they have to be thinking through every potential aspect of the physiology And
the, support that the patient is on.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): Amazing.
Well, as we close out this interview, I have a last question for you
about your vision for innovative healthcare at Children's Mercy.
What are some promising changes?
Is or game changers that we can look for in this area.
Dr Erin Opfer: With this new CT scanner, I feel like we are going to
be using it on more and more patient's.
We've already incorporated it into our.
Daily ct, most of our patient's are starting to get scanned on the CT scanner.
And we are continuing to, optimize the, settings and, things that we can
do, the capabilities of this scanner.
and I feel like there are so many things that this scanner
can do, that we are just.
At the tip of the iceberg right now, there's a lot of more things
that we can employ this for.
And so I look forward to seeing what we can do in the future with, our imaging.
Dr Sanket Shah: This is a Swiss army knife type tool that affects
variety of imaging and, roles in, congenital heart disease, care.
And as I alluded to, it is on us to, make sure that we use it, in an
appropriate manner to optimize surgical decision and, procedural decision
and variety of situations like we talked about heart valve disease,
adults with congenital heart disease.
Coronary artery anomalies and, a bright spectrum of congenital heart disease.
But I think we have to find the most appropriate way to use this tool.
it's gonna their care for sure.
Dr Sarah Gubara (Host): Wonderful.
cm201retrack_Dr Sarah Gubara_raw audio_1.13:
Thank you to Dr.
San Kate Shaw and Dr.
Aaron offer.
And thank you for listening to Transformational Pediatrics.
To refer your patient or for more information, please
visit children's mercy.org
to get connected with one of our providers.
This has been Transformational Pediatrics with Children's Mercy, Kansas City.
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other Children's Mercy podcasts.
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