Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I am Dr. Pam Peak, and this is episode number 543 of the Bold and the Brave, her podcast. Now, today I am going to be joined by. One of my all time friends and colleagues and a repeat offender, yes, she's been on before. by popular demand, I've gotten her again and what can I say?

Her name is Ashton Applewhite. And with the name like that, honey, you're gonna remember this she is. Absolutely extraordinary. She is the author of this Chair, rocks, A Manifesto Against Ageism. And that's the book we're gonna be really concentrating on in a big way today. I first heard about Ashton, when I saw her Ted Talk.

Which was in 2017. I stalled her and got her, so that we could have ourselves a royal time. And I'm telling you right now, everyone needs to go to the TED Talk done by Ashton Applewhite. It was absolutely. Brilliant. it articulated so much about where we stood then, not quite 10 years ago now, right?

2017. on this whole issue of ageism, which is probably one of the last things we could try to get away with these days. and we do, on a routine basis. So Ashton is an internationally recognized expert on ageism The book, the Manifesto Against Ageism, this Chair Rocks, was an absolute bestseller.

She's a co-founder of the Old School Hub. Look it up, it's awesome. And it'll keep you abreast of everything she does as an activist in the field of, this whole issue of ageism. And of course, she's written for so many different. publications including the New York Times and The Guardian.

and she speaks widely and that also included, I loved this part, the United Nations here she was, recognized, as one of the healthy aging 50 50 leaders transforming the world to be a better place, to grow older. Okay, with that lovely intro, Ashton, what up? Girl, haven't seen you forever.

Oh my goodness.

Ashton Applewhite: Yeah. What up A lot is up.

Pam Peeke, MD: Yep. A lot is up. Well, you know, a bunch of my team members said, we all went back to your fabulous TED Talk. we were wondering, you know, since it was, eight years ago right now, how much has changed, from the time when you were saying these precious words in your opener, what's one thing that every person in this room is going to become?

Older and most of us are scared at the prospect. How does that word make you feel? I used to feel the same way. what was it that I was most worried about? Ending up drooling in some grim institutional hallway. And then I learned that only 4% of older Americans are living in nursing homes and the percentage is dropping.

What else was I worried about? Dementia? Turns out that most of us can think just fine to the end. Dementia rates are dropping to the real epidemic is anxiety over memory loss. Alright, what up with that,

Ashton Applewhite: all that continues to be the case. there are things in the talk, I wouldn't say, for example, my niece who's a physician heard me speak and. And I used the, I referred to, you know, people really incapacitated people as drooling, and she said, auntie, a lot of my patients drool and they really don't like it.

They're embarrassed and I wish you wouldn't say that. And I thought, okay, that is something I'm never gonna say again. So I am constantly revising and thinking about how I talk about these things, but, I'm happy to say that that statistic, 4.5% of Americans over 65 ending up in nursing homes.

And remember, not all senior living. Nursing homes. Nursing homes provide skilled nursing care. That statistic has since dropped in less than 10 years to 2.5%.

Pam Peeke, MD: Whoa.

Ashton Applewhite: So the odds of anyone of you listening to this ending up needing skilled nursing care are dropping and so are the odds of getting dementia. That too has continued to drop. People are getting diagnosed at later ages. and staying healthier longer. So again, the odds of that happening to you continue to get lower.

It's not that our fears aren't real. I think it's really important to say that there are a lot of people out there usually trying to sell you something. And the only thing I'm trying to sell you is my book, and if you can't afford it, I'll send you PDF.

but you know, if you do, everything right, if you exercise, if you drink their magic supplement, if you just have a good attitude, everything's gonna be all right. Having a good attitude really helps having an accurate attitude, right? Not having our fears. Be out of proportion to reality. But that's pretty much the only thing about our aging that we can control.

So that is why I continue to work on the discrepancy between our understanding of aging and the reality and our fears about aging and the reality.

Pam Peeke, MD: Well look at our culture. as a physician I can tell you, you know, people just run from the whole issue of aging.

Ashton Applewhite: I call that age cooties.

Pam Peeke, MD: You got it. It's like, oh, is this gonna like infect me? and whatever. But what's happening is a lot of people are getting older themselves and suddenly it's Oh yeah. And a lot of people who have, a mic in front of them. are aging. And now what's happening is they're starting to say, okay, I really kind of get this.

so then in no time at all, we had longevity medicine. This is a new thing. It's longevity medicine. Alright. What the heck is longevity medicine Ashton?

Ashton Applewhite: Well, I feel you as a physician are better positioned to answer that than I am. I wanna make one point, which is that everyone is aging. And we are aging from the minute we are born. aging is not something sad that old people do, right? Everyone wakes up a day Older.

Older people are making up a bigger percentage of global population in the US and everywhere else, which is a function of declining birth rates. Kind of counterintuitively, there's fewer young people being born, but this is not a crisis happy to talk about that separately. but, you know, longevity medicine, there is not anything in the entire world that is gonna make you younger.

It doesn't happen. Right. we know that there are behaviors that can keep you healthy and, and I'm sure everyone listening to me knows what they are. You know, exercise, try not to smoke. try not to have a whole lot of extra weight on you, although people who are heavy can also be super healthy.

Right. I am not a physician. I am in the culture change business. So that has more to do with, educating people about the way we think about aging. And so it helps to think about it as not something sad and icky that old people do, which is where the age cooties come from.

And also to acknowledge that we. Are aging. It is this fascinating, powerful, lifelong universal human process, right? There's not much that every human being shares, but it is that, and that's really powerful and interesting to me.

Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, so I would like to, go to that place with you where you're talking about, you know, the cultural, aspects of what this is all about, especially in the USA, longevity medicine. I was sort of being rhetorical with you, you know, clearly I know what it is 'cause I, I'm actually writing my next book and it's got a whole lot to do with that.

But, here's the gig, a lot of what I'm seeing right now is kind of formulaic. You wanna be able to continue to do X number of pushups, you wanna be able to do, this and that so that you can be strong and independent and all the rest of it.

That's admirable. That's fantastic. Put together your own recipe of whatever's gonna work for you uniquely. Find your A team and make it work, one way or the other. Okay. I love that. but. We're missing the whole piece, about the mental attitude here, who, where people who, you know, research now shows that you have a more positive attitude about the whole aging process.

You do so much better. I really wonder how one then, can approach aging in a more healthful way, mentally, right? Mentally and themselves. And then also surround themselves with people who are like kindred spirits who are. People who are really, developing the same kind of ethos and, are supporting one another throughout.

This is why I love communities of

Ashton Applewhite: that's that's a whole nother really interesting subject.

Pam Peeke, MD: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean I've, I've watched what happened in Boston when they put together those little neighborhoods and,

Ashton Applewhite: Yeah.

Pam Peeke, MD: where, exactly. Exactly. And, you it's kind of interesting how people are doing this. I'm looking at the epidemic of loneliness, among so many

Ashton Applewhite: older people. It is not age. We, you know, we think of, we imagine these, you know. Little old people, sadly, you know, looking, the, the, the photo, the stock photo that bugs me is, you know, the, the ancient lady looking sadly through her, you know, lace curtain at the big world outside.

I like to talk, uh, in terms of having a accurate understanding of aging rather than a positive attitude because. It's hard to be positive all the time, right? There is scary things. You are worried about getting sick, ending up a loan, running out of money, and those are legitimate fears.

I will tell you that when I started out on this, and it's now almost 20 years ago, as it's cleared my TED Talk, I started out with all these fears, many of which were baseless. So counterintuitively, the more you actually learn and know about. Aging, the less fear it holds because you understand more facts and the fear itself is bad for us, right?

It is anxiety. It is stress. And how many things do we know Dr. Peak about how stress is bad for all our body systems? That is what? Doctors think is the basis for this finding that people with who you know, who see later life as a time of growth and purpose, just like the decades before it do live, an average of seven and a half years longer for sure.

They live happier. Because it is not healthy to go through any stage of your life, dreading your future. And also our psychology changes as we get older. We get better at not sweating the small stuff. And that is a buffer, for example, against, loss and all of that. And, as I said before, the one thing you can control, you can't control your temperament.

Some people are optimists, some people are pessimists. But you can control your attitude by learning. And that is why I co-created the old School Hub Oldschool info. it contains hundreds of free, vetted resources and all kinds of different formats to educate yourself about ageism in whatever form and in from whatever angle, Speaks to you, and the books are not free, but everything else is free.

And we also hold a weekly open to anyone Zoom, go to our events page where you can talk, listen to people talk, anything ageism related. ask a question. You know, bring up something you heard, something that happened to you, something you hope doesn't happen to you. And you'll find yourself in a community of sensible, well-informed people who can help, discuss it and place it in context.

Pam Peeke, MD: So I'm a realistic optimist. especially as a physician, I know how, where this is going. at the same time, I'm just naturally more optimistic. not happy, wacky, silly, stupid. It's just, you know, I just have that optimistic, edge to me

Ashton Applewhite: I think it's, you know, people dread getting older and then when they realize like, oh shit, I'm actually older and, you know, it's not so bad. And that there are all kinds of, processes and ways in which aging enriches us and makes us more confident, especially women.

Pam Peeke, MD: Exactly, and I'm seeing more and more about this online. I never really saw about it before because you know, women, you know, there's that word. Here comes Ashton. Women were invisible. nobody wanted to see them.

Ashton Applewhite: invisibility is one of the toughest concepts. I think it is typically applied and feel free to disagree with me, but in a heteronormative context and under patriarchy. Okay, those were two $50 words, but they are relevant. that. Under Patriarchy, which is a society that serves men's interests before women, and benefits women who see their value in their relationship to more powerful men around them.

And sometimes we gotta make deals right? That is the way ahead in the world. No judgment ever against any woman who does what she needs to do to feel good about herself and protect herself. Emotionally and socially, but under patriarchy, our value is tethered to whether, how thin we are, how white we are, how pretty we are, and our, whether we stay young looking and our reproductive value, right?

we are here to make more babies and menopause. The amount of new stuff around menopause is fantastic, but a lot of it. Also expensive stuff that, it's medicalized. It's pathologized, like everything that has to do with our bodies. so I think the invisibility often means for women that they become invisible to men.

The male gaze, right? And the most helpful thing I read about invisibility was just a one sentence comment by a writer named Grace Paley, invisible to whom? And on whose terms, and we are seeing a tremendous amount of women online and out in the world, Dr. Peak, I agree.

Who are saying, you know what? I am not buying those terms. That degrade me and diminish me. I am full of, whatever you know, of grit, of vigor, of good ideas, of, whatever. And I am not shuffling quietly off stage. And if I can't find community and support in the men.

For whom I once looked for that invisible to whom And on whose terms often not invisible to the other women around me. I'm not invisible to the people who wanna hear what I have to say and learn what I have to teach. so it's, it is a shift, you know, especially.

If when you were younger, you got a lot of your self-esteem from turning heads when you enter the room because that does stop happening. But that is a very short window under capitalism, and I do believe that if we can look to see our value more broadly and not tether it to appearance, although we have a really, really long, fascinating road ahead.

Pam Peeke, MD: One of the things that I have seen. That really, I think is great is that in the field of fitness, for instance, there's a pivot away from, skinness, that used to happen in the seventies, eighties, nineties, it was all about that. Now it's about being strong and healthy

Ashton Applewhite: You don't see Skinness on the uptick because of ozempic.

Pam Peeke, MD: No, not at all. Not at all. what I see is a lot of people, I mean, right now remember we're in beta land. Ozempic is beta, and also what you need to know. Ashton is that there are at least another four categories of related drugs. they're not, GLP one, at all.

They come from different origins and, you know, some are gonna be converting some of our fat into more brown fat, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm looking at all of this. knowing that this is a real moving target and we can't hang our hats

Ashton Applewhite: Yes. So many people participating in a mass experiment with no idea what the long-term consequences will be. Again, no judgment with all this m. Emphasis on fitness, but it is a lot easier, of course, to take a shot or take a pill, whatever, than it is to change habits.

And we know how hard it is to diet and how hard it is to keep weight

Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know, the grand majority of people who are taking the GLP don't become thin at all. What they do is they'll drop. a certain amount of weight and then things happen. They either go off the drug or they plateau or whatever. A lot of it depends upon lifestyle habits.

we can't assume that there's this skinness outcome 'cause it's not happening. That will happen, you know, when one of the celebrities who can pay through the nose can, drop a few before she hits the red carpet, and of course she'll, shoot up her GLP one and that'll be the end of it.

I'm talking about people who, you know, women who currently weigh a 250 pounds and pray to God to be able to see 200. And the last time I looked, that's not skinny. And you know something, I'll tell you what it. No, no, what I'm saying is it's healthier. It's healthier, and it's getting people to, where they need to go.

And so it's exceptionally important, to make certain, we know that there are shifts now.

Ashton Applewhite: Mm-hmm.

Pam Peeke, MD: Away from some stereotypic body of a, some influencer who's shredded and, ripped and skinny in a tiny waist and forget it. that that actually. No, no, I know. I'm right because there was a recent survey that came out that said that people, especially women, are completely turned off by those kinds of people.

What they're now looking for are people who look authentic. And authentic means you're not, some kind of bizarre, manufactured stereotypic body. instead, you've got a little something going, you know what I love more. Anything else? I'm on working with the Senior Olympics and I've, competed with them and, what I love about those people is that the average age is 68 and you start at the age of 50, right?

And then of course it goes on odd infinitum. I mean, we have people who are 105 still kind of doing their little track and field thing, albeit a little slower. So, what I love there is I love looking at their bodies. I'm looking at women who swim and break world records in the pool, right, who have extra weight on board, didn't stop them from becoming a world class athlete.

Now, in swimming, you can get away with that track and field, probably less so, you know, for the obvious reason. But you know, from sport to sport, I'm watching this and then triathlon, which is my babe. you could see the same thing you

Ashton Applewhite: and often a little extra weight can confer protection, especially in later life.

Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you know something, there's a researcher, from the University of, South Dakota. Becca Jore is her name, and I always see her at the Senior Olympics. 'cause every two years when we compete. she comes through and she does, assessments, physical exams and performance assessments of the athletes, who wanna do this.

And she follows 'em year after year. And one of the things she's found is that, you know, if you roll up that little t-shirt, you're not seeing a six pack. I'm just saying, you know, and you're not seeing some shredded abdomen on the part of a woman. Instead, you're seeing basketball players, softball players, All kinds of athletes, badminton, on and on who are just crushing it.

but they've got some nice little padding there

Ashton Applewhite: bodies. I mean, you know, not

Pam Peeke, MD: It's authentic and that's why that's why people are, are so excited about them. They're like, oh, real people who knew? It's, so radical and, and back and forth. So, you know, I think that's kind of a piece of where it goes. You know, the other thing too is, what does a healthy 80-year-old look like?

Now I'm just throwing it out there. Think about it for a

Ashton Applewhite: Well, You know if I could put one fact about aging in every head in the world, it would be the. Us. The longer we live, the more different from each other. We become every right.

Pam Peeke, MD: a minute. That's a keeper. That's a

Ashton Applewhite: Yeah, I mean every newborn is unique, right? But, a whole bunch of 17 year olds have way more in common, developmentally, physically, socially, than a bunch of 37 year olds who are way more like each other than a bunch of 67 year olds and so on out. So at the heart of ageism is stereotyping on the basis of age and stereotyping is always divisive and.

Ignorant, but it is especially so in the case of age, the older the person, the less their age tells you about them, what they look like, whether they can swim or sink, what they're interested in, et cetera. We become more different from each other and it becomes less and less accurate to guess anything about someone on the basis of how old they happen to be.

Pam Peeke, MD: I've never heard that before. I love this. So where does that come from? You know, we, we get older, so we look at people our own age. You know, once you're over the age of 60, say 70, you know, whatever.

Ashton Applewhite: You must know this as a, fitness expert. When you see a bunch of 70 year olds, do they all look alike? Do they all, I mean, I mean, random, not athletes, do they all look alike? Do they all perform alike?

Pam Peeke, MD: no, of

Ashton Applewhite: No. Right. Not at all. Any more than, you know, 40 year olds are different too. I mean, think of an, a good exercise as a high school reunion, right? No one looks, I mean, it's a little, if you go, went to a small school from a, and everyone's from a similar, you know, region and socioeconomic status, you're gonna have more homogeneity than if it's a giant, School with a lot of kids from all over the place, but still, as we age, we grow more different from each other than the it's, and it's based in solid science, in biology, in sociology.

The nerdy way to put it, which I bet your listeners will understand, is that the defining characteristic of late life is heterogeneity. the opposite, being different from each other.

Pam Peeke, MD: And you know what's interesting? I'm just reflecting on this as you're talking, and that is that, you know, when you're younger, you wanna be like everyone else, okay? You wanna have the

Ashton Applewhite: And the

Pam Peeke, MD: hairstyle, you want Exactly.

Ashton Applewhite: getting older, especially

Pam Peeke, MD: Ah, now I get it. So now what you're really saying is that, you know, when you're younger and you're insecure, and you're trying to develop a sense of self and, and confidence and worth and all the rest of it, you know, you really kind of, you're driven to look at people around you and say, you know, how are they doing?

Should I look like them? and then when you conform, there's a false sense of security when you conform. it's kind of interesting. But then as you get older, you know, and I notice this of course we have literature that supports this. After the age of 50, you're like, you got a problem with me?

Leave. There's the exit sign. Honey.

Ashton Applewhite: I mean. If we compare. We compare ourselves to people lifelong. My grandmother used to say, and I thought, I thought she made it up, and I've discovered that she didn't. Comparisons are odious and it's a really good maxim because I mean, if you have two your kids and you compare them, you compare your kids to the other kids in the grade.

That way lies, madness, lies, insecurity, you know, we all do it. as animals, as you know, we have these sort of tribal instincts to see who's like us. in the business world, it's referred to as culture fit. What that really means is someone like us, someone who will understand my references, someone with whom I'm culturally similar, often, or perhaps have the same interests.

And, the more diversity we have in our. The people that we mix it up with and meet in our lives. in my utterly prejudiced opinion, the richer our life is because we get to question our assumptions about anything about people who like Bruce Springsteen, about people who are heavy, about people who like to garden.

You name it. Because there is always so much diversity and any group of those people, if it's older, it's gonna have more diversity than a bunch of younger people who are doing the same thing.

Pam Peeke, MD: All right. Now when we come back. I'm gonna ask Ashton to help us, navigate a lot of our own biases that we don't even know exist. And

we're back. Alright, Ashton, now let's look at some actionable items here. You know, as we look at this, I mean, like, we could be here, I don't know, we'll have you back on again on a weekly basis to remind us yet again. but seriously. Actionable items, things that we can do.

So, you know, what I like to do is I like to catch myself, and reflect, when I think I'm beginning. Oh no, I always do. It's a self-reflection that I've learned along the way, as I, try to develop a judgment-free zone, um, where I'm not like, well, you know, no matter what.

Is in front of me one way or the other. actually, you know what I do? I'm gonna tell you Ashton and everyone out there in the Herb Podcast land, one of the most fun things I do with my brain and that is, I look at life sometimes, like one big outta control sitcom.

It's just a sitcom. And then I, I look at what central casting has sent me today. It's like, oh, the lady with the yellow hair and the multicolored outfit. that, doesn't exactly fit right, but it's interesting. So central

Ashton Applewhite: may be a challenge is an idea you had, which is a little bit unnerving, but also it's how we grow and it is how we, you know, bias is really hard to deal with, to, undo. it is deeply ingrained habit. Habits are hard to change. That's why it's easier to take a pill to lose weight than to diet and document everything you eat, et cetera.

So we do have to do exactly what you're saying. You do, Pam is, and it's fantastic that you develop it as a habit. I try not to. I find myself being critical of what someone looks like or whatever, and then I do say, why? why am I doing that?

Like, where's the win?

Pam Peeke, MD: it's almost like, you know, the more something weirds you out or even irritates. Hate you the more you learn about yourself.

Ashton Applewhite: Good point. And when it comes to aging, the best thing you can do, if everything start all change starts within always right, is to look at your own attitudes towards age and aging. And think if you are afraid of something, you know, worried about something, think about like where the negative messages come from, And what's the purpose?

And the odds are really good. It is to make you buy something. Or to divide you to make, you compare yourself to other people your age or to another generation. those lazy, you know, millennials, those greedy boomers do not get me started on generational labels and even the idea of generations themselves, 'cause they just divide us and lead to stereotyping.

How could anything be true of the millions and millions of people born, roughly around the same age? 'cause there's not even an agreed upon definition. Of generation. Right? nothing's easy to, when it comes to changing habits and challenge bias, but here's a way into that. Think about how you use the words old and young.

Do you say, I'm too old for that? We all do ps. We all do. No judgment. Well, you're never too old for it because there are other people this your age doing the same thing. Who can do it faster? Who can't do it at all, et cetera. You might be too lazy.

You might be out of town. You might have done it yesterday, but it is never ever about age.

Pam Peeke, MD: I have to reflect on a story. Ashton, I think you're gonna like, and this is actually something in my new book. So here it comes. So when I began the triathlon, why did I do that? Because I got bored with marathon. It's like, you know, I mean, seriously, 20?

No, no, we're not doing this anymore. So I finished that little Hummer and then I went right over to triathlon. It's really good for people who have attention deficit issues, especially because if the swim doesn't work, you got biking. If the biking gets boring, you got the running. So, you know, it's sort of a joke among all the triathletes.

So. There I was, and I was brand new, newly minted, and I didn't know much of anything about anything. So I trained and you know, I had a great little coach and everything, and there I was my very first sprint triathlon. Right? So that's the lowest level on the triathlon, you know, iron

Ashton Applewhite: have never even considered going anywhere near a triathlon, so you need to treat me as a beginner.

Pam Peeke, MD: So, so here I am and you know, you have to learn all the things, you know, you have to rack your bike and you have to set up a little transition zone as you kind of, you know, transition from one sport to the other and on and on. So I'm busily doing that next to two.

Absolutely precious. 21-year-old young women they're in college, they're just finishing their seniors and they're all excited. It's their first sprint triathlon, they can't even handle it. They're so excited. so we were all just sort of talking and laughing and having a great time. And then all of a sudden a loudspeaker, happened.

And he goes, would everyone who hasn't been inked, please get inked? And I'm like. Who's inking, what's happening? And they go, oh, you have to have your number put on your arm. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. I'm new at this, what the hell do I know? So I showed up for the inking dude, and he puts my number on my arm, which is good.

And then he starts scrolling on my calf, the back of my calf, and I'm like, what the hell are you doing back there? I can't. What up? and he said, oh, that's your age.

Ashton Applewhite: Huh.

Pam Peeke, MD: And so I said, oh, that's interesting. See in marathon, when you line up for Marathon, you do it by speed. So I'm a mid packer, so that would be the way it is. But in triathlon, yeah, in triathlon it's all done by age for a boatload of reasons. part of it is the fact that I think, I mean, I'm just sort of throwing it out there.

You don't want a bunch of 17 year olds smacking you in the face, in the water. They tend to be, fairly aggressive out there. you want it to be a little bit more controlled, but it is what it is. And then, the other piece is safety. The water is the most dangerous.

so they have boats out there and they'll watch for the color of your cap, and they will also, be very, on the alert. for people as they're getting a little older. 'cause many of them may not be as strong. We don't know. Some are very strong. but you never know.

Anyway, so I'm out there and I got inked and I went back to my transition place where the 21 year olds were finishing up their bike racking and the rest of. And you know, we were chatty Kathy before and then I bent over and I was working on my stuff and making sure my bike shoes were there and whatever.

And then it was got real quiet and I thought,

Ashton Applewhite: how old you were.

Pam Peeke, MD: yeah, and I turned around, I said everything okay. And both of them were staring at me, kind of with an interesting look on their face. And finally one broke out and she said. I wanna look like you when I'm your age. And I had never been told that in my life.

And I think at that time I was like, I dunno, 57 or something. And they said, you're older than my mom. Which would make sense since they're 21. than my mom, you're older than. And I sat back and I had to reflect like, what the hell was going on in their heads.

And I thought. I get it. kind of see where they're coming from because at 21, is older,

Ashton Applewhite: I mean, it's hard to imagine getting older now. I think a little bit of that is age and we live in. The culture that you know. Doesn't encourage reflection and paints old as inherently bad. but we don't, you know, a huge problem with American society is that it is the most age segregated in the world.

We spend most of our time with people our own age, and so naturally we assume that the reason we get along that there's affinity is because we're the same age, and in fact age has much less to do with affinity and collective interest. Than gender, than socioeconomic background than where you're from then what language you speak and so on.

I paradoxically, we give age more credit than it deserves. So I'll just mention one more habit to break. I mean, that's very, literal, which helps me 'cause I'm very literal. Try to break the ageist habit. We all do this. No judgment of making a beeline for people your own age when you enter the ri the room.

Or I'm meeting, Because the more time you spend in mixed age company, the more obvious it becomes that you may or may not like so and so, but it's gonna because you don't like their politics or you don't like whatever, but not because you don't like their age. That's not how it works.

I wish, I mean, perhaps for your first. Athletic event. They don't know how fast you are. but I would certainly vote for your age to be revealed. I'm all for age, being out there in the open, but not, right from the get go. Like I would like medical charts.

Your age is a really important part of your biology and doctors need to know it. I'd like it to be on page two. Of your medical chart dating profiles. I don't think it's smart to lie about your age. I definitely don't think it's smart to place to put a picture up that was, you know, taken years earlier.

You don't want the person's face to fall when they set eyes on you. But I'd like it to be on page two. I would like the assumptions that we make the minute we have a number, which we all do, no judgment, to have a little harder time to, let's be a little more confused for a while so that we don't categorize according to age.

And actually, here's a, experiment that's analogous. orchestra. An orchestra in Europe was entirely made up of. White men and they realized like this has to change. And you know, they started to conduct auditions behind a curtain.

Pam Peeke, MD: I remember this experiment. Yep,

Ashton Applewhite: put in a curtain. So you couldn't tell how large someone was. You couldn't tell whether they were wearing girl shoes or boy shoes. And the orchestra diversified because even though they wanted it to be diverse, their biases and habits. Habits die hard. You hire people who look like you.

And once they no longer had information about people's size, their skin color, their gender. It diversified. So that's the world that I want, right? Where age is both more overt, but it's stripped of value. You're not better 'cause you're older. I don't think old people belong on pedestals, but you're not devalued because you're older and you're, same goes for young, right.

Ageism cuts both ways. And young people experience a lot of it assuming that someone is too young for a task or a relationship, is ageism also?

Pam Peeke, MD: I think that, you know, I have a friend right now who's visiting Italy. visiting some families up there. she just says time and time again, how much the family is valued and that the elders, are really held in much higher esteem. and you can see this, when you have the multi-generational families and, the value that's placed on making certain that, an elder whatever, whether it's a grandmother, grandfather, aunt, uncle, Yeah, is just beautiful respect.

And then at the same time I pivot over to Japan where things are really changing there. They have such a large population of aged and the kids aren't really showing up. And many of these people, are living in, Pretty much, abject, loneliness, that breaks my heart. I also look at this whole issue of the family.

what's going on with that? are we really stepping up

Ashton Applewhite: Well, one thing that I do, there's a lot more of, than was the case 10 years ago, is interest in inter age, families. Living society. Tremendous amount. I mean, I'm dead center in the baby. Boom. And you know, one of, you know, I hope not to end up in an institution.

If I do, if I need care, then I will obviously. But, I would like to live surrounded by people of all ages. And I've thought like is that ages by partner and I, I mean, I'm 73, he's 79. And we went and looked at a couple of adult, residences, senior living stuff.

And they were really nice. And the people we met there were interesting and honestly, they were a lot like us. They were reasonably well off, they were white, they were educated, and you know, it felt super comfortable because of that. But I personally don't wanna spend the last decades of my life surrounded by old white people because I want, Break my legs stumbling over a tricycle.

I wanna be woken up by, weird music in the middle of the night. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but I want, to be challenged like you're saying, you are looking for new ideas and always questioning the way you think about things. I think that is what makes life interesting. It's part of what wards off dementia, right?

We're constantly dealing with new input and new challenges

Pam Peeke, MD: Well, that's what research shows. Ashton research shows that when people hang out with younger people, it could be a 50-year-old hanging out with a 20-year-old. It could be an, uh, 75-year-old hanging out with, you know, of, of. 40-year-old or a 20 year, well, it doesn't matter. There's, a very positive health effect because it keeps you on your toes.

One of the things that's really important, and we're circling back to this point about the entire aging process is that you continuously need to learn. You continuously need to stay curious, like, what's that about? You continuously need to embrace adventure. You know, life's either a daring adventure or nothing at all.

That's Helen Keller's motto. and mine, I absolutely believe it. that's an understatement. I just, um.

Ashton Applewhite: a birthday, so I feel a special affinity

Pam Peeke, MD: Ah, I see, I see. but really at the end of the day, that's such a huge piece of

Ashton Applewhite: It is Can I bring up something? Speaking of Helen Keller? Yeah. She, she was brave. I mean, Helen Keller didn't run any triathlons and I just wanna put out there, I mean, I am no athlete. There are an awful lot of people who are unable to run, maybe even unable to walk.

who live, who don't perhaps have the, you know, the financial capacity to, cost money, to take time, to train, to hire a trainer, and all of that who don't have that extra income. And I think it's really important to celebrate people like you who do these remarkable athletic feats.

I just, I live in New York City and I cheered my brains out for all the marathon runners, especially like the ordinary people doing this incredibly brave challenge, but it's just as important. To realize that those people are outliers. They set a marvelous example for people who aspire to that.

But it's really important to recognize that most of us are in the messy middle, and that even people with chronic illnesses, even people who can't even leave the house, lead lives with meaning and value if they have social connection, right? If they have something that gives their life meaning, and it's, there's such emphasis here.

Around active aging, and it is great to be as active as you can, but don't beat yourself up if you are not an athlete. Right? Remember that the proverbial skydiving octogenarian, she is an outlier. You don't have to jump out out of a plane.

Pam Peeke, MD: Well, I wanna, I wanna clarify the fact that, you know, I do what I do, but the grand majority of people clearly don't do that. What I always say is that there's a basic foundational level of use of your body that affects your mind tremendously, and you'd simply do what you can and go out of your way to try to get up and celebrate the fact that your body can do whatever

Ashton Applewhite: I love that you put, if you can, we need to stay as healthy as we can, as active as we can, and get rid of the idea that there's a binary. You don't go from independent to dependent, from mobile to immobile. We're all on a spectrum, and the idea is to challenge yourself as much as you can and

Pam Peeke, MD: It's all relative to who you are. It's all relative to who you are, and this is why, the grand majority of people, the mass majority of people, are just doing the best they can. And they're making do, they're finding workarounds. they're kind of trying to hack their own system, figure it out.

if one leg isn't working that well, well the rest of my body is, what can I do? But, at the very basis of aging. Foundationally is a mental attitude of meaning and purpose in life. If you have whatever it may be, that gives you meaning and purpose in life, that's why you get up in the morning.

Ashton Applewhite: That's why I do the work that I do because what is the biggest force in the world telling you that as you age you are worth less, especially as a woman. And it's very, very hard not to let that corrode your sense of your own value. Change the way we feel.

And again, please go to oldschool.info or my website, this chair rocks.com. I work really hard to make my thoughts available to the public for free and just noodle around. I guarantee it will make you feel differently about the years ahead.

Pam Peeke, MD: I love it and I just wanna leave it with, the fact that. Again, I would say that Ashton and I are both, realistic optimists, meaning that we live in the real time, the real world. We're mindful of that. at the same time, you know, we've got that little tinge of optimism and I could see that all over your

Ashton Applewhite: I am an optimist. you asked what was different since the TED Talk and honestly the fundamentals of that. Everything I said then is as relevant today as it was minus the line about drooling. and there's a few others I would tweak, but since then there is so much more awareness of ageism.

no one says, what's that anymore? Right? And that is huge because you've got to be, so much bias is unconscious and ageism has not bleeped onto our radar yet as much as sexism and racism, and I don't ever wanna compare them. They all matter. And we are not gonna get rid of ageism without undermining these other forms of stereotyping and discrimination because they all intersect and reinforce each other.

But we are much, much, much more aware of ageism and you can't fight something you're not aware of. So that is the thing, you're right, I am optimistic because I really do see culture change I ask people, you know, what would you think of as criteria for diversity? what makes, and people say, well, typically, you know, race and gender and maybe socioeconomic background.

And if they don't say age, you know, they're starting to say age. If I say, what about age? No one says that's a dumb idea. They say, why didn't I think of that?

Pam Peeke, MD: Well that's because it's the level of awareness, you know, I see this also paralleling what's happening in women's health. so now we say the M word, we say menstrual. Who knew? we say. Well, perimenopause starting with the age of 40. So we're now thinking way earlier than, when menopause hits and then post menopause.

Given the fact that you're gonna, the postmenopausal period is huge. You know, it's like decades and.

Ashton Applewhite: it. Ladies.

Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, I know. Seriously, it's, nice on the other side. it's just one of those situations where I just want everyone to know that, this is an evolving. issue and movement. And, Ashton Applewhite is one of the great leaders and activists in this field. thank heavens for all of your activism and work and bringing together communities and having your retreats and all the rest of the great stuff you could learn about.

when you go to, what was that website hub?

Ashton Applewhite: The old school hub Oldschool Info and my personal website, this chair rocks.com.

Pam Peeke, MD: Absolutely. And your, your mind will be blown. and you'll learn so much and I don't care how old you are. Be curious and go ahead and run on over to those websites. I. Dare you, Ashton, I can't thank you enough for being on the Herb podcast. I want everyone out there to Google Ashton Applewhite Ted Talk and just listen to it.

It is absolutely positively brilliant. There's no,

Ashton Applewhite: 11 minutes long.

Pam Peeke, MD: 11 minutes long because, I've done my TED talks and they're quite strict. They're like, okay, you know, the cane comes out at, but at the end of the day, listen to it. It's beautiful. It's fabulous. She'll have you. Smiling and laughing at the same time. your mind will be blown.

So the TED Talk as well as the book, this chair rocks a manifesto against ageism. And then, the websites and this will all be up of course, when we go live and you can, look at all of the, social media handles as well. So, Ashton. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And you are a repeat offender, so of course I'm gonna have you back again and again. Okay.

Ashton Applewhite: Thank you, Pam. I.

Pam Peeke, MD: Okay. And that was a promise, not a threat, but it could be a threat too. And I wanna thank my sponsor, so Array vitamins, minerals and herbs, rooted in nature and the new Her Life Stages products. I want you to scope 'em out since we've been talking about aging at so array, S-O-A-R-A y.com.

And take a moment to leave us a review because we love your feedback. Just saying, okay, this has been a production of Podcast Health and I got a little something to share with you. You know, your time in this world may be limited. Maybe limited, but the things that you can do with that time are not so CAR A dm, seizes the day.

Everyone out there. Thanks for listening.