Will Meador, MD (Host): Welcome to Better Edge, Northwestern
Medicine Podcast for physicians.
I'm Will Meador your host.
Um, I'm an associate professor of neurology at the University
of Alabama at Birmingham.
We're hosting a panel discussion today on the topic of paraneoplastic
syndrome as well as recent updates from the AAN or American Academy
of Neurology Annual meeting.
Um, joining us today, we have two experts from Northwestern Medicine.
Dr.
Ditte Primdahl is an assistant professor of neuro-oncology and
neurological surgery, and Dr.
Shailee Shah clinical assistant professor of neurology in the division of
multiple sclerosis and neuroimmunology.
Dr Primdahl and Dr.
Shah, welcome to the podcast.
I'm excited to learn from you today,
Shailee Shah, MD: Thanks so much for having us
Host: Dr.
Shah We'll start with you.
Do you want to share some highlights from some of the
exciting session you attended at.
the AAN
Shailee Shah, MD: Yeah.
So,
um,
when it came to autoimmune and paraneoplastic disorders, um,
there were quite a lot of,
um,
discussions and updates about the,
um,
autoantibodies that we typically associate with cancers and,
and
frequently conversations about.
These patients who not only have paraneoplastic syndrome associated
with autoantibodies, but have these in the context of receiving what are
called immune checkpoint inhibitors, which work to essentially kind of
unleash the immune system in order
to, um,
to target the cancer.
And so these are patients in whom you're balancing autoimmunity and,
um,
these,
uh,
immune checkpoint inhibitors and,
um,
trying to.
Make sure that a patient's cancer is getting better while simultaneously
making sure that their neurologic disease is not getting better.
And so
there has been some,
uh,
additional updates on some of these patients.
In particular, the ones that have antibodies who tend to.
Have much more severe disease in the context of immune
checkpoint inhibitors and,
um,
updates about,
uh,
additional immunosuppressive treatments that can be used at the
same time as these immune checkpoint inhibitors in select group of patients.
Um,
usually more targeted treatments that
allow you to continue to treat both at once.
Host: It's really interesting.
I guess you have to be careful with combined therapy and aggressive
immunosuppression as well.
With that,
Shailee Shah, MD: Right right
Host: Dr.
Primdahl what about you?
What did you take away from the AAN
Ditte Primdahl, MD: A couple of things I think kind of to
Move and build on what Dr.
Shah just said.
One thing that I found, um, very fascinating and I think will be part
of the future, is going to be how we obviously treat paraneoplastic syndrome
which is a big part, but also balancing that with the treatment of cancer.
And in that regard, one of the sessions that I really
enjoyed was when they presented.
A couple of cases where they have treated, and granted it was a little bit different.
It was autoimmune diseases that was, they were refractory.
So again, it's your immune system kind of being overactive and they
were not able to control patients.
Symptoms with immunosuppressive therapy like steroids, IVIG, et cetera.
Um, so what they had done was treating that them with, um, CAR
T-cells so CD-19-directed CAR T, which for me as a neuro-oncologist
I felt was this very interesting and very interesting approach because
to what Dr.
Shah said, what we typically do, if we have a paraneoplastic syndrome in
setting of, a cancer especially if the cancer patient is being treated.
with Immune checkpoint inhibitors, which the goal of that is
to boost the immune system.
We, if we want the paraneoplastic syndrome controlled, we like
to suppress the immune system.
So it's kind of like you're pushing the accelerator and
the brakes at the same time.
So to that, to that exact exact point, do we want to try to treat the paraneoplastic
syndrome, compromising the care of.
The cancer, knowing that treating the underlying cancer is also part of treating
the paraneoplastic syndrome, so is this, um, is a challenging situation to be in.
But anyway, so the, what they had presented was treating some
patients not paraneoplastic but autoimmune with CD-19 CAR T-cells
um, so therefore not using steroids.
And these patients, granted it was.
Peripheral neuro, like neuropathic syndromes, um, but they didn't have
for instance, icans, et cetera.
Um, so I felt that was very interesting.
And also as neuro oncologist thinking, is there way we could then target.
maybe design the cars so they could, they could attack both, you know, the
immune system for the paraneoplastic syndrome and also treat their cancer
like that would be a very elegant way of treating paraneoplastic syndromes
and cancers at the same time.
So that was one of the things for me as the
treating aspect of it, that was very intriguing.
Host: Yeah, and the CAR T therapies seem pretty limitless, right?
When you really train these cells
Will Meador, MD (Host): to,
Host: to go after targets that you want them to go after.
So that is really
exciting
Shailee Shah, MD: and
starting, you know,
we're exploring them in neurologic disease, and so our hope is that
this will be a very sort of positive.
outcome with the
different diseases they're using them in And, and we can apply them to more
and more, and as you said, try sort of more elegant approaches to this in the
future for patients who have, you know, sort of dual competing pathologies.
Um, yeah, no, I think it's a very exciting thing.
I think one thing that's going to be really important moving forward
to all, you know, is, is to, for all this is, is that oncologists
and neurologists will have to be working quite closely together when.
it comes to treating these patients And there will likely Be a lot of complexity
involved, especially at first as.
they can't figure out how to go about it
Will Meador, MD (Host): And you know,
Host: it's really exciting to go to these talks and see cutting-edge
therapies or innovations, and then you get back to the clinic, right?
Or back to your office.
So Dr.
Shah how are you going to integrate some of the things you took away from
the AAN Into your everyday practice.
Will Meador, MD (Host): Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think, um,
Shailee Shah, MD: into my everyday practice, I think, you
know, there and, and, and really into anybody, any neurologist's
oncologist's everyday practice.
I think the things that are worth sort of taking away, more broadly speaking
are how to recognize these syndromes.
I.
And how to actually diagnose them.
So these are patients who typically present with these subacute
onset of neurologic symptoms.
Usually there are very specific phenotypes that are associated with these.
Diseases, um, things like limbic encephalitis, um, myelitis, a rapidly
progressive cerebellar syndrome.
Um, all of these particular phenotypes can also overlap, which can be included
in The diagnosis, and these can frequently happen in patients who have a history of.
A of a, a longstanding history of tobacco abuse or patients in whom there have been
other B symptoms, weight loss, fevers, chills, other constitutional symptoms or
suggestion of something else going on.
Um, one of the exciting things that's been talked about recently
is that diagnostic criteria for paraneoplastic syndromes, which were,
uh, discussed in several of the topics,
several of the lectures, um, at
the AAN
The main components of the new criteria that was created is looking at the
syndromes in the context of what are called high risk autoantibodies and, and
also categorizing certain phenotypes as higher risk and others as lower risk.
This in combination with the presence of a cancer or, um, the identification
of a cancer over a several, two-year period of time can essentially be
used to create a score that tells you about the likelihood of having
a paraneoplastic syndrome.
Host: And is that building upon like the APE2 score that's
been published in the past?
Will Meador, MD (Host): Yeah.
Shailee Shah, MD: Yes, exactly.
Will Meador, MD (Host): It actually,
Shailee Shah, MD: it, it almost works in parallel with it in a lot of ways
because when we're talking about the APE2 score and the right scores,
we're talking about the autoimmune encephalopathy or encephalitis scores, or
the likelihood of having an autoimmune.
Uh, seizure disorder, epilepsy, things more like LGI1 NMDA, that sort of thing.
And then this works almost complimentary to that because this work gives
us more on those autoantibodies that are, have a little bit of a
higher association with cancers.
Things like ANA1 or anti-HU um, or anti-Yo PCA1 those sorts of things.
Host: And Dr.
Primdahl what about you?
How are you going to incorporate changes in your practice
based on what you learned?
Ditte Primdahl, MD: I
think a big
part of what I took away from the meeting as well was how do we predict,
how can we predict this especially.
In the setting of so many emerging therapies in the oncologic world, uh,
when they use not only CAR T, but also when they use BiTE therapies, other
things that will kind of ramp up the immune system, is there a way that
we can predict, foresee things that we can do from the get-go to prevent?
Things like that.
And I, so Dr.
Shah and myself are opening, um, a formal paraneoplastic clinic.
We're hoping to more longitudinally follow these patients because that way we
can collect some of that data to better understand, not just like while they're,
you know, inpatient in the acute setting, but also over time and maybe even before.
So getting that full, you know, vision and the scope of the, the disease
course and understanding it better.
They talked a lot about like predictive biomarkers,
diagnostic biomarkers, et cetera.
Both in the serum, but also in the CSF So some that will be, will be interesting.
going forward
Host: That's exciting about the clinic.
So cohorting, the patients will really help you learn how to
manage these individuals and, and how they do over time.
That's exciting.
Shailee Shah, MD: one of the things that we
haven't yet mentioned was specifically using, um, these, uh, sort of
omics that allow us to, um, better understand or better identify
certain autoantibodies Um, that the idea is that there's this sort of,
Techniques that we can use to I to identify previously unknown
human autoantibody, antigens and using sort of sequences.
available on the CSF or serum and typically using a sort
of phage display platform
Host: That's exciting.
I know testing is a hot topic,
Will Meador, MD (Host): um,
Host: as far as getting the right tests and the right patient and,
Will Meador, MD (Host): and
Host: screening and finding.
The right antibodies and
Will Meador, MD (Host): you know,
Host: hopefully that
Will Meador, MD (Host): pro
Host: procedure or process would help us deal with those false
positives that we sometimes get on some of the larger panels as well.
as far as other things, if for colleagues who weren't able to
make the meeting, anything else that you'd like to share, Dr.
Primdahl with your colleagues who couldn't make the meeting
Will Meador, MD (Host): that,
Host: that you took away?
Will Meador, MD (Host): Yeah.
Um,
Ditte Primdahl, MD: I think one of the
advantages of going to this meeting is.
Especially in this, in a, in a field that is so with a rare disease that
we all have to learn from each other.
And I completely understand sometimes you can't go, but what I realized going
is that the network is so good, but it's also available even when you're not there.
Um, for instance, there are various, like the dinners for autoimmune disorders
paraneoplastic and that, um, being established and being part of that.
Throughout the year, not just at AAN like they do webinars, et cetera.
And for me, we're all busy clinicians, so we can't attend all the time.
But the virtual options of every once in a while there's a journal club or webinar.
I think, um, I learned more about different options, just being there.
So looking, and that's something, you know, you can look up different
things that are available, not just at AAN but year-round just to
kind of try to keep up with this
emergent emerging field.
Host: That's great advice for sure, to stay connected, as always.
Will Meador, MD (Host): Yeah.
Yeah.
Host: Anything else you'd like to share from the meeting?
Dr.
Shah
Will Meador, MD (Host): No, I, I think I,
Shailee Shah, MD: you know,
I think that, honestly that really summarizes it, which is that, um, trying
to stay connected, trying to be involved, um, getting involved in different
projects and in lectures both.
Sort nationally and internationally is really
what will ultimately push the field forward.
I think we're kind of excited to build this paraneoplastic clinic here, but I
think ultimately it's also going to open doors for us to collaborate with others
across the country too, um, and, and be able to kind of share data amongst all
these different sites, which we're fairly
excited about.
Ditte Primdahl, MD: Also local provider, like people in the community,
it can be very hard even when you're in a big academic center to,
um,
get the expertise just because it is rare.
So collaborating with people in the community that might not feel
very comfortable managing these patients, that people can reach out
to some of these bigger academic centers that plant the flag.
So together we can,
you know,
obtain this knowledge and learn
how to best treat these patients.
Host: It sounds like there's a bright future for Paraneoplastic
syndrome patients, so,
Will Meador, MD (Host): um,
Host: you're doing great work there at Northwestern Medicine.
Shailee Shah, MD: We try to think
so
Host: Thank you for joining us today for the podcast, to refer any patients.
you can hit on over to the website at breakthroughforphysicians@nm.org/neuro
to get connected with one of our providers.
that wraps up this episode of Better Edge, a Northwestern
Medicine podcast for physicians.
I'm your host, will Meador and thank you for joining us.