Melanie Cole (Host): Prostate, MRI is reshaping biopsy
decisions and cancer detection.
Welcome to Better Edge, a Northwestern Medicine podcast for physicians.
I'm Melanie Cole, and today we are highlighting improving prostate
cancer detection with prostate MRI.
Joining me is Dr.
Heaton Patel.
He's an assistant professor of urology at Northwestern Medicine.
Dr.
Patel, thank you so much for joining us today.
So how has Prebi Prostate MRI changed detection and biopsy triage in your clinic
over the last, say, five years or so?
Dr Hiten Patel: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
And I think This is an, very important topic in urology and
prostate cancer in general.
So prostate MRI has really completely changed how we detect prostate cancer.
We use prostate, MRI to now often determine if someone needs a biopsy
at all to detect prostate cancer.
and it also impacts how we do the biopsy.
So, two things, I'll touch on those two points.
So with Ashley Ross, who's One of my senior partners in urology And the
urology and data analytics team, we actually created a risk calculator,
the my NMRI risk calculator that can give a more precise estimate of risk
and it's available online And also in our electronic medical records.
And so when that calculator and MRI suggests that there's, about
a 10 or 15% or less risk of having a clinically significant prostate
cancer, that usually is my threshold to say, Hey, maybe you don't need
one, or we can continue PSA screening without having to jump to that test.
The second way that prostate MRI can, change how we perform detection
is that we can target lesions that the scan identifies on biopsy.
So that reduces the risk that we miss something significant on the biopsy.
So we used to do a template biopsy of different areas, but now we
say, Hey, there's a lesion here.
Let me direct a needle to that area.
And that makes it less likely we might miss it on biopsy.
And then, so that's how it's really changed my practice of.
Detection care.
You know, there's other areas that it's changed a little bit too.
So we can monitor changes on MRI.
So just 'cause we didn't do a biopsy now doesn't mean we can't repeat an MRI later.
If someone has changes or if they're on active surveillance for low risk cancer.
And then some other nuances, how we study and improve prostate, MRI, we can get into
as needed, but there are studies on do we need to use contrast or not on the mri.
Is it by parametric good enough compared to multiparametric?
And then there's some issues around, false positive or negative scans.
so This is areas where PSMA PEth tracers or AI or artificial intelligence applied
to MRI may help us in the future.
And so not what we're using a hundred percent yet in clinical
practice, but things where we still have exciting places to go.
Melanie Cole (Host): So can you expand just a bit on where that PSMA
PEth scan fits into this algorithm?
Dr Hiten Patel: Yeah, so m MRI's pretty good by itself.
I mean, it's much better than, transrectal ultrasound was by itself.
but there are still some areas where radiologists may say, Hey, that spot
looks, intermediate or looks equivocal.
We're not that sure that it's really prostate cancer.
And we think there's some opportunity there to say, well, if we incorporate
other decision factors, one of them could be PSMA PEth, which is right now used for
staging for higher risk prostate cancers.
But, there's data now coming out if we combine MRI with.
PEth.
and Dr.
Ted Schafer has a study, a trial that we've, published data on
now for higher risk patient's.
can that really help us find these lesions and say, okay, that
area really is more suspicious.
'cause the PEth tracer also lights up in that area they weren't sure about on MRI.
and vice versa, maybe the MR MRI didn't show a spot, but that PEth
tracer ISS picking up some activity.
Does that mean that there's some prostate cancer there?
So PEth may help us also direct.
Biopsies to important areas, similar to how we've learned
from MRI in the last 10 years.
Melanie Cole (Host): It's such an exciting time in your field, Dr.
Patel.
So give us an analysis of VA data that you led.
What did the VA data show about MRI use over time?
And which operational levers really were more reliably and
raise that adoption for use.
Dr Hiten Patel: in the Veterans' Health Administration, so I have a part-time
appointment at the Jesse Brown va and a partnership between Northwestern one
of the academic affiliates for the va.
we, as part of a DOD grant, evaluated administrative data across all VAs.
And it's in a recent publication that we actually did find that overall
uptake in prostate M MRI was very steadily increasing since 2016.
And so a lot of seminal trials came out in those, around that time in 2017.
And it rose essentially from nothing to about 40% in recent years or last year.
And so this increase over time.
Paralleled or actually was maybe even slightly better than use from data sources
like Medicare and other health insurances.
So if anything, a VA's doing as good or potentially slightly better.
but 40 percent's, you know, obviously not near a hundred percent.
And the question is, where should it be?
And so I think this.
Use in the early period of the paradigm is essentially based on provider acceptance.
So as we're becoming more comfortable using it, are we willing to change
how these prostate biopsies are performed for decades by urologists?
And how comfortable are we at looking at MRIs and performing these targeted
biopsies, which is a different skill that didn't exist 10 years ago.
And so guidelines are now acknowledging prostate MRI and
recommending it more often.
And so with the data that's increased, I think that's gonna help.
and obviously it's helped a lot to get to even 40% now.
but for more urologists to be able to accept and say, Hey,
This is part of my practice.
And having data that shows it improves detection and outcomes for patient's.
Melanie Cole (Host): So then Doctor as prostate MRI use has
increased over time for veterans.
Some disparities still remain.
And despite overall growth, what patterns or gaps in the
VA data surprised you the most?
And based on those, what are the implications for clinical practice
at the VA and non-VA settings?
Dr Hiten Patel: Yeah, so honestly, overall uptake has been very steatotic,
and I hope it continues to do so.
But part of our research is how to make that better.
And how to make that, more equal.
And so our analysis so far, I found that the slower uptake was actually
seen in patient's in rural settings.
And so these are settings where it may be, And we have to do
more research to figure it out.
Is it that they just don't have access to MRI or is it the providers
locally aren't used to using it?
And so I feel like there are a lot of more imaging centers and quality.
So our question is gonna be, are the barriers.
which may vary by site.
Is it because the provider's not accessing it?
Or there's some issues on just even having an MRI scanner available?
And the last thing could be radiologists with experience reading MRIs.
These are things that if you were trained before the last 10
years, these are patterns and things on the M MRI that were not.
taught or not picked up.
And so there may be some extra training that's needs to be done on
both the urology and radiology side.
so that's one part is that rural veterans, seem to have less access
or at least, have less use right now.
but it's not as bad as it could be.
And I think, you know, it's.
Hopefully gonna keep getting better as we work on it.
And the second part is that I think is more concerning, is that
black veterans, have a little bit lower use of prostate MRI.
They're still increasing over time.
but what was concerning is that they presented with higher
PSAs than other veterans.
And so even though, black, men or veterans were getting prostate, MRI,
at a slightly lower rate, they had higher PSAs, which means their risk
was potentially a little higher.
And we know.
Black men in the United States have higher risk of prostate cancer in general.
And so the next goals would be to see if there are some regional or center-based,
which sites, where to actually, I target opportunities to address the
slower uptake and make it more equal
Melanie Cole (Host): So do you have some strategies that you'd recommend to
overcome some of these challenges quickly instead of it taking like a long time?
Do you have some practical strategies that could help with some of these obstacles?
Dr Hiten Patel: so some strategies of.
How to overcome this.
And I think This is the most practical part, is to find out where the gap is.
So first I think you do need access to ur urologic care.
And so having a urologist who gets trained in how to perform targeted
biopsy and know how to use an MRI, I think that's key because if you
don't have that, Then there's no point in doing the MRI to begin with.
So I think that's the first part.
And I think urologists are getting better at that.
So if you're a urologist who's interested in doing that, I
think that's, the place to start.
And then second is the partnerships with radiology.
So, depends on how your practice model works.
At Northwestern, it's a little easier that we have radiologists
we work with directly.
They're part of the same center.
but in private practices, maybe that.
They're working with re imaging centers that are, a little separate.
They may not know the radiologist.
It's hard to communicate.
So I think establishing some communication with radiology to
say, Hey, This is what we need.
we're gonna send our patient's here to get these MRIs.
We need to be able to get that information in a.
accurate way and to then be able to use it.
So I think setting up how to do targeted biopsies in the clinic And then using
the information the prostate, MRI gives you by working with radiology is
gonna be very helpful, to make sure you trust what it's showing, And then how
to actually get that into your clinic.
Melanie Cole (Host): Those are all really workable solutions, Dr.
Patel.
When MRI targeted and systemic biopsy grades are discordant, then
tell us your management algorithm given the intermediate risk signal.
Do you have a recent case that illustrates this approach?
Tell us about that.
Dr Hiten Patel: we have a recent publication.
we didn't lead it, but we were one of 27 centers that participated.
and there was some data from several centers that was put together in
a publication that showed that if you had a grade on the systematic
part of the biopsy, the template part That is not related to the MRI
and compare that to what you found on the targeted biopsy on the MRI.
the risk of the cancer is actually kind of in between the two.
If they both show the same thing, then now we know exactly what we're dealing with.
Sometimes the targeted biopsy finds something the systematic biopsy
missed, or undergrad, And what we found is that the risk is a
little lower than what the targeted biopsy shows, which is reasonable.
It's still a clinically significant prostate cancer if
it's grade group two or higher.
but in those cases, we're a little more comfortable with considering active
surveillance for these patient's, where you say, okay, we did find grade group two
a clinically significant prostate cancer, but we have a little bit more comfort
of watching those men on surveillance similar to how we do for grade group
one or lower risk prostate cancer.
So even though grade two is not.
low risk.
these men may, when they're discordant, you know, I had a patient that
targeted biopsy show that they had a grade group two prostate cancer.
The systematic biopsy actually was either negative or low risk in some areas.
And so that man and, we followed on active surveillance and, that would be
an option that I think five, 10 years ago we would not have offered this person.
and similarly, I've had another patient that I shared with Dr.
Ross that.
Had a targeted biopsy showing a significant cancer, a systematic biopsy
that showed actually no cancer at all.
And we were more comfortable considering that maybe they should consider
focal therapy, as an option opposed to treating the whole prostate.
And so I think these are places where men would've either.
Had to more strongly think of radical surgery or radiation therapy that now
when you have some discordance And the targeted biopsy and systematic
biopsy, I think that gives me a little bit more, of a confidence that, hey,
the cancer really is localized in that targeted biopsy area, And we can offer
maybe a broader management approach.
Melanie Cole (Host): That's so interesting.
So thinking about lesion characteristics, how do they guide decisions on repeat
sampling, confirmatory testing, treatment intensity as you were
speaking about active surveillance, And what would dictate that?
How do those lesion characteristics, guide those decisions.
Dr Hiten Patel: The important characteristics of
radiologist gives us on the.
Lesion is, exactly where it's located.
Is this something that we can reach easily?
If I missed it on biopsies, is it because I just couldn't target
that area with a needle correctly?
And that would induce me to say, Hey, we, maybe we need a repeat
sampling or a different approach of how to get to that spot, on the next
attempt if the PSA keeps rising.
but the main thing the radiologist is gonna say is, how big is that spot?
is it one centimeter, two centimeters in size?
And what is the RAD score?
This is score.
Classifies risk and one and two basically mean that it's a negative MRI.
There's no high suspicious areas.
A three is equivocal and fours and fives are high or very
high-risk of cancer being present.
So I have a man who had a RADS four or five lesion, and it was negative.
We still need to pay a little bit more careful attention to it,
especially if they're PSAs rising.
If it's a Pyra three and it's negative, patient's often ask me,
well, why do I have a spot on my MRI?
you're gonna do a biopsy and show that there's no cancer, why would it be there?
And That is an artifact of imaging and it's an equivocal spot.
But those, I'm more likely to trust and say, Hey, that's
unlikely at prostate cancer.
We don't need repeat sampling.
And of course if the PSA is going up, we can reevaluate.
but those I'm a little bit more trusting of.
So, PY ed is one characteristic.
Lesion size is the other that I think is very helpful.
And then same thing for treatment intensity.
If someone had a RADS three lesion with significant prostate cancer,
but it's a small volume, they may be offered active surveillance.
Whereas if it's a RADS five lesion, and they have a higher risk prostate cancer
grade group two or higher, I'd be more likely to treat whether it's radical
therapy or considering other options.
Melanie Cole (Host): how should clinicians approach decision-making
after a negative prostate, MRI?
And what role does PSA density play in guiding whether to defer
or proceed with that biopsy?
How are you counseling patient's and even referring physicians in this situation?
Dr Hiten Patel: for most men with a negative prostate,
MRI, I'm fairly comfortable.
we usually use prostate health Index.
PSA density is augments even before the MRI.
And so if somebody had a low prostate health index or low PSA,
density, we might consider, oh, do we need to work them up further?
But, but I think a prostate, MRI, for most men is gonna help.
And then the combination of saying, Hey, you have a negative MRI and your PSA
density is low, or your prostate health index is very low, I'm very comfortable
watching those men 'cause they have a low risk of having a significant prostate
cancer and continuing PSA screening.
now if someone had a high PSA density, I think that's important
to say we should keep a closer eye.
But for most men with negative MRIs, I'm comfortable.
with research by Dr.
Adam Murphy, our clinical cohort, and his trials, we found that black men.
Despite a negative prostate, MRI still have higher risk of clinically
significant prostate cancer compared to Caucasian men or men of other races.
And so I think that's important.
If black men, especially if they have any family history or need some
more guidance on a real PSA density cutoff, we should be lower for them,
than Caucasian men to say, Hey, maybe we should still do a, biopsy or we at
least need to watch you more closely.
And so that's something we're trying to improve.
We have some research on the AI side of saying.
For the patient's who have false negative MRIs, patient's who had negative MRI,
we did a biopsy and still found cancer.
Why is it negative?
And so with Lee Cooper and other's, who's in a digital pathology, PhD, lab
that we're working on that to see can we figure out these characteristics and can
we go back to the imaging, which is what Olas bag, she, another AI in, prostate
cancer researcher does and can we.
Feedback and say, well, was this a really a negative MRI or did the radiologist,
not see a lesion that was too small or looked similar to the background?
Is there variation?
And so I think these are tools that are gonna come out that are gonna help us.
But for now, I use PSA Density and Prostate Health Index,
as kind of my characteristics And then the patient factors.
They have a family history, or they have African American ancestry
that could, increase their risk.
Melanie Cole (Host): Dr.
Patel, this has been so informative and really interesting.
This is such an interesting topic and I'm excited to learn more as you
develop more of these algorithms.
So, what top three actions would you recommend urologists implement
now to standardize MRI ordering, reporting, and follow through
across VA and non-VA settings?
Dr Hiten Patel: I guess number one would be working with radiology.
And that's really feedback.
And so if you get a prostate MRI result, providing feedback, and I think, Adam
Murphy did this in our Jesse Brown VA, is to work with radiology and say, Hey,
these are cases where we had a high-risk lesion, but the biopsy was negative.
Is there something that explains why, were we over calling lesions?
And then same thing with negative MRIs.
This is a negative result.
But I still found cancer.
Can we work with radiology to give that feedback, and improve the flow?
And so that's one.
Second is, and it's not harder for urologists to control,
but it's MRI availability.
and throughput.
Different centers will have access to different MRI scanners, but working
and trying to figure out, hey, if we start doing this on patient's that
weren't having it, the centers may just not have the ability for throughput.
And so finding options for your patient's of where they can get
scans done and considering if you need contrast, it's faster scans
if you do it without contrast.
we have future research to decide on using AI to decide should you even
get contrast or not as an idea with the lost bag sheet that our prostate
cancer score may focus on in the future.
But, that's part of it is.
Can we make use of the resources we have for MRIs?
And then third, which is on the urologist, is to implement targeted biopsy.
Getting comfortable with looking at the MRI and and whether your
radiologist circles your lesion or not.
And then being able to direct the needle to perform a targeted biopsy.
That's a skillset that I think is required now and is something
that, we have to learn ourselves.
Melanie Cole (Host): Great information, Dr.
Patel.
What a great guest you are.
As always, thank you so much for joining us today and to refer your
patient or for more information, please visit our website at breakthroughs
for physicians.nm.org/urology
to get connected with one of our providers.
That concludes this episode of Bettered a Northwestern
Medicine Podcast for physicians.
I'm Melanie Cole.