Amanda Wilde (Host): Meaningful Medicine is a Novant Health Podcast bringing you
access to leading doctors who answer questions they wish you would ask.
From routine care to rare conditions, our physicians offer tips to navigate medical
decisions and build a healthier future.
I'm Amanda Wilde, your host, And in this episode we'll look at signs, symptoms,
And the latest advancements in treatments of pediatric sickle cell disease.
Pediatric hematology oncologist, Dr.
Felipe Batista, is here to break it down.
And Dr.
Batista, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for being here.
Felipe Bautista, MD: Thank you so much for the invitation.
Amanda Wilde (Host): To begin with, can you explain what
sickle cell disease is and how it presents specifically in children?
Felipe Bautista, MD: Yes, of course.
sickle cell is an inherited blood disorder.
It's congenital.
That is a small genetic change in the hemoglobin.
The hemoglobin is a protein that we all have that carries oxygen around
our bodies inside the red blood cell.
So, nowadays, it is, diagnosed on newborn screen, uh, in the United States.
Every state screens for this at birth, so we get to diagnose it.
as soon as a baby is born.
Now this disease can affect, any organ in the body.
You know, that change, in the genetic code of the hemoglobin causes that, hemoglobin
to like, we call it polymerization, meaning it kinda like it sticks together.
makes that red blood cell abnormal, like, Kind of half moon,
crescent shape, sickle cell shape.
And, it, causes other downline, changes in the biology of things which, increases
inflammation, the stickiness of things.
The immune system is also involved and it leads to problems.
It pretty much any organ in, the body, you know, and as time
goes by, that can get worse.
In children, as compared to adults, obviously you're just
kind of born with it, right?
And at the beginning, your body is protected by hemoglobin f
fetal hemoglobin that we all have, has no sickle cells in it.
That's the vast majority of hemoglobin at birth.
So we don't see symptoms right away.
But of course you have a family That has a baby with this chronic blood disorder.
So there's a lot that goes into that, at the beginning as compared to obviously
an adult where, it's the actual patient being diagnosed and things like that.
Amanda Wilde (Host): So there's screening from birth, but you just mentioned there.
maybe no symptoms right away, but what symptoms or complications should
parents be aware of in younger kids?
Felipe Bautista, MD: So, again, it takes about four or six
months for, the hemoglobin.
s or the sickle hemoglobin to be the most abundant in the body, right?
So during those first few months of life, kids are relatively protected.
But, the changes that start to happen, little by little, also right away.
So one of the first, things that occurs is that the spleen, the
spleen is an organ that we all have.
It is a filter for blood.
It starts to, trap those sickle cells.
The sickle cells get stuck in the circulation in there.
and, the spleen slowly stops working very well, little by little, right?
So the spleen in all of us protects us against some infections, some important
bacterial infections that can make us very sick and can be life-threatening.
So the first thing that we're always, trying to make families
aware of that we're on the lookout for is, Severe infections with
what we call encapsulated bacteria.
So these things can present with, SEPs seeds, bloodstream infections,
meningitis, things like that.
So one of the most, important things to, make families aware of or to understand is
that, there's, an increased risk of some infections that can be life-threatening.
So.
at any point in the lifetime of a patient with, sickle cell throughout their entire
life, if they have a high fever, they always need to be evaluated right away.
And that's something that, even some physicians or some healthcare
providers I'm not aware of, and, we still recommend that, they
need to be evaluated right away.
And, go through a workup, make sure that, there's no, bloodstream, life-threatening
infection and get treatment, like that.
I would say the initial maybe more emphasis that we plays on, on a
potential early symptom that we see, but of course, the most common symptom
in sickle cell, This is, most people know about the ACS pain crisis, right?
So those sickle cells get stuck in the circulation, decrease blood
flow to different areas of the body.
Of course, your bones.
And, it's more complicated than that.
there's inflammation, there's other things that go on it, but, in general,
pain crises are the most common symptom.
And in babies, while the, other things that we can see are like swelling of the
hands And the feet, we call it dactylitis.
And then there's again, inflammation.
That's the way that a pain crisis may present in a little baby.
but overall the pain crisis, again, where is the pain?
Pain can be anywhere actually.
that's another thing that we're on the lookout for, early on.
Amanda Wilde (Host): And what treatments or management
strategies are currently available?
For pediatric sickle cell disease.
Felipe Bautista, MD: So, the, field is undergoing an exciting
time in the sense that there's more, research than in the past.
for a long time these disease was not, at pair with another, with
other similar chronic illnesses that.
maybe affect more people, in terms of research and things like that
affects populations, differences in the healthcare system for minority
groups, are well evidence in this disease, unfortunately, And for a long
time, we've made progress in that.
So it's an exciting time in the sense that there's more research, newer
therapies that are coming in And we may, uh, address those in a little bit, but.
Traditionally we've had, blood transfusions, to, help
manage some of the symptoms.
Of course, there comes with a big burden to the family, lots of other potential
side effects from blood transfusions.
And it is only like, we try to use it more only on the acute
issues and things like that.
But there's a medication, most people are aware of these, hydroxyurea
that has been, used in sickle cell since the 1970s, 1980s.
And, it still remains our.
Best, outpatient therapy even after all these decades, it still remains our
main, least aggressive disease-modifying.
medication and, it actually, can be very helpful in most patient's.
You know, it's tricky in sickle cell because, there are different types of
sickle cell And we, the different types.
There's still a lot of variation within patient's.
So not everybody responds very well to hydroxyurea, but most people do.
And, especially the ones with severe forms of sickle cell.
So, hydroxyurea, has been.
shown during these decades to prolong life.
So extend the life in patient's with severe forms of sickle cell.
Imagine is a medication that can make these patient's live longer.
So that's something that we found with research, along all these decades.
So that's, still very good.
It helps by protecting.
The damage from sickle cell to the different organs in the body.
And, the downside is that, as a medication they have to take every
single day for essentially the rest of your life, unless you're undergoing
other disease-modifying or, curative transformative therapies, right?
So that's a big burden on the patient's.
And again, not everybody responds.
Even they take it every day, but most people do have a benefit, right?
It's not a hundred percent effective, but it helps to decrease, essentially.
Most complications from sickle cell.
Maybe not all, but most complications, including, those pain crisis.
Amanda Wilde (Host): Along with that, early and consistent
care can make a difference.
In a child's long-term health and quality of life, how have you seen that play out?
Felipe Bautista, MD: So, in, pediatrics, right?
Uh, we first start dealing with, the parents, with the
family, actually throughout most of our, the patient's, right?
So we're, there's lot, um.
Education, education that needs to go, on and establishing that trust That
is so important in healthcare, right, with the patient's family, right?
So a baby, imagine that it's just a baby, right?
It's just there.
And, we're sharing all these, risks that the disease can carry, affect any
organ in the body and things like that.
So.
Just, having a connection with the family is very important.
So a lot of our efforts go there in a education, trying for the families to
understand, the, risks of the disease.
That can be very overwhelming.
how to navigate the healthcare system, how to understand what needs to go in.
A lot of prevention.
Prevention.
Prevention is what we do mostly on our outpatient visits and, a lot of families.
I have hard time understanding that or keeping up with the multiple
appointments that are required.
So at the beginning it is really again, getting to have that
connection with the family.
understanding education, what things to look out for and things like that.
And also a big component of This is, genetic counseling, some of these,
families never had a, member of their families with, sickle cell disease
and suddenly have a baby with a severe form of sickle cell disease.
What does that mean?
So.
Having the parents understand, where it came from, the risks, even if there's
no family members that were affected, how do you navigate all of that?
What does it mean for family planning in the future?
So, our goal is not to make decisions or say what do you or should
not do, but you know, educate.
Parents, with the tools that are there to make decisions for themselves.
So for example, You know, you have a child with severe form of
sickle cell disease, you plan to have more children in the future.
my goal is for people to understand that there are.
Things available out there.
You know, there's things like in vitro fertilization that you can pursue to
prevent having a child from sickle cell, but that's, their decision.
it's not that they should or should not do that, but most people are not
aware that That is even an option.
Right.
to people with who are carriers For sickle cell, You know, it
typically is about a 25% chance of having a child with sickle cell.
So that also means for a family That is a 75% chance of not
having a child with sickle cell.
So how do you navigate those, decisions?
Just, You know, our goal is to empower families, to be armed with the knowledge,
to make decisions for themselves and later on, as the Chi children.
Continue to grow, right?
They start to venture into the early teenage years or sometimes we forget
that we did all this teaching with the parents, but we are now have to translate
that and communicate it in an easy way to the patient and as they keep growing
to the teenager and prepare them.
To be empowered on their own because their parents are not gonna be there
holding hands, you know, like, forever.
And the healthcare system also, it's not as, welcoming
or as helpful in this regard.
You have to be empowered to really kind of keep going on your own.
Right?
So all of Those are the challenges of, pediatric sickle cell care.
But we, try to do our best.
Amanda Wilde (Host): That's interesting.
I was just going to ask what comprehensive care that addresses
pain management to school support to mental and emotional health look like?
Not just for children themselves, but for families.
Felipe Bautista, MD: Very good question.
So, it takes a village to provide the best care possible for, individuals with
sickle cell and, multiple levels, right?
So, Important to start early, right?
With an expert in sickle cell who at least, you know, it's, involving
some regards, some areas of the country, don't have access to a
pediatric hematologist near home.
So, primary care physicians can play key role also in managing a
lot of the, things from sickle cell.
But, having an expert who's at least guiding every few months that,
unfortunately here in Charlotte, here in our network, we do have
a, comprehensive sickle cell center who, has the expertise to.
explain they do the education things to look out for and start treatments early.
So we started the hydroxyurea at nine months of age in individuals with, severe
forms of sickle cell, the milder forms.
again, a lot of, patient's do well with the milder forms
without a lot of complications, especially during childhood.
And, we do follow them a little bit less often, still very closely, but a little
bit less often as they're less, likely to run into, a lot of complications early on.
But, the comprehensive treatment for children, involves multiple things, right?
So not only the education piece, which we actually have, for example, a dedicated
sickle cell nurse who, uh, has her own curriculum and kind of tracks, how much
progress, we have made with each family.
So that's, great to have the luxury of, somebody else, not just the physician or
the nurse practitioner or the provider.
Do it and kind of track these changes.
Right.
we have, medications, again, use of hydroxyurea And then vaccines.
I didn't talk about vaccines, but they've been so important, so important to.
Prevent the infectious complications from sickle cell.
You know, we see now much less often those sepsis or things that my mentors
used to see and those, deaths from infectious complications, not that
they don't happen, but they are much, much more rare is because of vaccines.
So we are really like, Hey, we gotta go on with Such an important part of the
preventative care and, Recommendations for vaccine can be a little bit complicated.
So, it, they keep updating every time and, staying on top of that also
requires a little bit of extra effort from providers and, again, where the
expertise comes in, but we are fortunate to be able to administer those extra
vaccines or those extra doses or boosters, here in our office too.
So again, the comprehensive care, not only the specialist, but being
able to provide some of these extra things so that the family doesn't
need to have another appointment with somebody else to get some of these
extra interventions that are necessary.
another key important component sickle cell.
It's screening for, things like stroke.
So, sickle cell is one of the most, common, reasons for a stroke in
pediatrics And in general, patient's with sickle cell in the adult years
that at increased risk of stroke, right?
So very important, complication to try to prevent, keep an eye on.
So have the ability to do some of the screening tests that we do to Try to
prevent catch early, things like that.
So, for example, there's ultrasounds of, the head called transcranial, ultrasounds
that are done to screen for the risks of, stroke within the sickle cell population
That is already at increased risk.
is also recommended to do MRIs, school age years, to screen for silent strokes,
you know, uh, smaller lesions that may not be a full-blown stroke, but I have.
Big implication for the lifetime of the patient, that can create
neuropsychological symptoms, learning difficulties, increased risk of
the stroke farther down the line.
So all of those things are embedded in how to apply them.
It is, challenging sometimes, but, uh, we have the ability to do that.
Continue with that.
Then we do screenings, for.
cognitive, development, the learning difficulties.
We started doing that not too long ago with the help of, one of our
neuropsychologists that we have available here in the network.
We have the luxury of having that, that's not available everywhere.
And to further kind of, identify those kids who are already
having some issues, right?
Support them, make sure that we are, addressing the brain imaging
to see if it's related or not to sickle cell support, and kind of set
'em up for success in the future.
And, the other thing, part of the comprehensive care here ideally, would
be, the, psychiatric psychological part.
sometimes chronic pain is a big, problem.
Very challenging to treat in some of our patient's.
Usually, when you get into more like the teen years, not everybody,
but some patient's get into.
this chronic pain cycle That is so difficult to get out of and it needs
expertise from multiple specialties, but that's something that, ideally, every.
Centers should have.
and it is also again, a luxury, right?
Having a psychologist in the clinic who sees the patient's, you know, at
the same time of the regular visits, who's an expert in pain, right?
I mean, that's again, some of the things that will be ideal.
And, we don't have it at the moment, but we continue to work
with the, outpatient services within our network or outside of it.
And finally, not to get too long on the days, but, the best comprehensive
care for these patient's will be like a lifelong, center for sickle cell, like
the ones that care the lifespan, right?
and there are some centers in our country that do that.
And what what that means is really your same sickle cell expert seeing
you from birth until the end-of-life.
So your whole life.
Your same team, your same provider, your same doctors, same nurse
practitioners, same nurses at the same center, at the same physical clinic.
That's, again, dream here.
You know, we have our adult colleagues who also help us And we
are trying to, work with what we have.
But, it's difficult to accomplish that.
But that will be, ideal for this chronic illness.
And there are some centers who are, doing that.
Amanda Wilde (Host): You have described a sophisticated set of tools and systems
for addressing this disease in all of its.
Facets.
You also mentioned there are new therapies and research developments on the horizon.
What are those and are there any curative options that give you
particular hope for the future?
Felipe Bautista, MD: Yes.
Like I said, I said earlier, it's an exciting time for sickle cell in the
sense that, there is more research, there is more advancements that are actually
happening very quickly, and how to implement them is still very difficult.
So first, well, for a long time we had a cure for sickle cell.
But that cure, it's, the stem cell transplant or bone marrow
transplant is another term for that.
That, has been available since the 1980s when we first realized that
it cures sickle cell by chance.
You know, somebody with leukemia, uh, bone marrow transplant and right cure the
leukemia And also the sickle cell, right.
But anyway, that, process is very complicated.
It involves chemotherapy, knocking down your immune system, very high-risk
of complications like graft versus host disease and things like that.
And while.
Things have gotten much better, And we are making progress in that field as well.
there's high-risk of complications.
So the cost of cure it can be pretty high too right now.
the field has made advancements in the sense that if, for patient's
who have, full ceiling who is a full match for something like a cure.
Curative therapy like a stem cell transplant.
You know, again, the outcomes are improving and we're
getting better at that.
So that's something that certainly we offer or we talk about, right?
Again, we are the families, the patient's with knowledge to
make decisions for themselves.
But if a patient has a full much sibling and has severe forms of sickle cell
disease, we do, encourage, A referral to a transplant center to talk about, this
curative therapy Now, newer therapies out there as a lot of people have heard,
I've been on a New York Times a lot in the press and, things like that.
And different news outlets is a gene therapy or gene editing,
some other work for that.
And I was at the approved a couple years ago, Commercially available
for kids, in adults, kids older than 12 years of age in adults.
it's, a very promising, treatment, already giving us, more hope.
Already transforming the disease in a lot of, patient's, but
a lot of challenges remain.
So I'm hopeful, and I'm excited that this will keep going, And we will get to a
place where it's, more accessible, more affordable, not only here in the United
States, but in the entire world where most of the patient's with sickle cell.
Live and, a lot of challenge remain.
But again, it's an exciting time, right?
It is, very expensive And it's still, we're trying to work out
who is the best candidate for that, how to pay for it, and, how do
we speed things up a little bit.
But very promising.
So I am overall very excited about the future for the options that
we'll have to cure or transform the disease in our patient's.
Amanda Wilde (Host): Well, with all of this happening, I can imagine parents may
easily feel overwhelmed by the diagnosis of pediatric sickle cell disease.
I just wanna end by asking what guidance or reassurance would you
most want those parents to hear?
Felipe Bautista, MD: Yeah, the first thing, I mentioned
it before too, but it's.
Establishing that trust, having the family And the patient trust the.
providers who taking care of them, the specialists, are taking care of them.
It's so, so important.
And, again, the healthcare system has had some barriers.
It still has a lot of barriers for minority populations including,
the patient's who are most affected with these condition.
African Americans, Hispanics, minority populations from other parts of the world.
that has made it very challenging, our trial record with some research, we think
sickle cell is also, tricky to navigate.
So, try to relay and establish the trust so that, you know, we can have, honest and
helpful conversations is so, so important.
And, I would say, trust your medical team.
we're here to help in the best way we can talk to you,
inform, arm you with knowledge.
And then, talking about this new, gene therapy, gene
editing, it's an exciting time.
it gives me a lot of hope already.
more tools that I can offer my patient's already.
You some of our patient's are going through these treatments as
we speak, which is very exciting.
and before, we only had, the transfusions, hydroxyurea, and,
that much more to offer, but again, patient's, families with knowledge
to make decisions for themselves.
that's the thing.
but hopefully better days are coming for sickle cell.
Amanda Wilde (Host): It's evolving.
Well, Dr.
Felipe Baltista, thank you so much for this conversation And for sharing
your expertise and insights today into pediatric sickle cell disease.
Felipe Bautista, MD: I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this
disease and thank you very much.
Amanda Wilde (Host): To find a physician, visit novant health.org.
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This is Meaningful Medicine, a Novant Health podcast.