Host: Many of you football fans out there may have heard about Pittsburgh
Steelers defensive and TJ Watt suffering a collapse long during the season
After receiving trigger point, dry needling.
My guests today are here to explain what happened to TJ Watt,
The benefits of Trigger point dry needling.
and how safe the procedure is when it's done by certified experts.
I'm joined today by Sammy Ahmed, Molly Lipton, and Rush Patty, all of whom are
doctors of physical therapy with OACM.
Scott Webb (Host): Welcome to A Bone to Fix from Orthopedic Associates
of Central Maryland Division.
I'm Scott Webb, and I've got A Bone to Fix with you.
Scott Webb: So I wanna thank you all for joining me today.
We're gonna talk about something really interesting.
I have a vested interest.
I'm a lifelong Steelers fan, And so we're gonna talk about this TJ
Watt situation where he went for
Host: Trigger point, dry needling.
Scott Webb: had a collapsed lung, was unable to play for a period of
time, so Molly, I'm gonna start with you just a foundational question here.
Like what is trigger point dry needling, and how does it differ from acupuncture?
Mollye Lipton: Trigger point dry needling is a skilled intervention,
where we use a thin monofilament needle, That is used to penetrate the skin
and stimulate what we call underlying trigger points, which is gonna help
manage pain and movement impairments.
So, our preferred sign that we wanna be looking for when we do dry needling
is called a local Twitch response.
It's not necessary, but that's kind of what we wanna elicit.
And a local Twitch response is like, if you think about when you have a
Charlie horse in your calf and a.
Wakes you up in the middle of the night, you got that nice cramp in your calf.
That's actually what we're looking to elicit.
And that's gonna help, , kind of increase blood flow and oxygenation
to the tissues and relax that muscle.
Acupuncture is more based and rooted in traditional Chinese medicine and
like the energy meridian theory, whereas, dry needling is targeting
those local church responses and targeting the trigger points.
Scott Webb: Yeah.
And all of This is so new to me, Molly, because my experiences with physical
therapists have been with myself and my kids, and it was all sort of muscle
stuff and moving stuff and exercises and stretching and bands and all of that.
So to hear, that physical therapists are doing, , this type of work,
and I really wanna understand this.
And Russ, I'm gonna go to you 'cause I, And we know what happened with TJ
Watt, And the downsides apparently of trigger point, dry needling,
perhaps not being done correctly.
Like, talk about the safety measures, like what are some of the key safety
considerations that practitioners should follow when they're doing dry needling
Russ Patti: you know, I think first and foremost the biggest safety
measure is therapist competency and therapist education and knowledge.
And that kind of breaks off into several other subcategories.
So what I mean by That is, You know, the knowledge of anatomy and
your positional placement, knowing.
What muscle you're going to be needling.
The ability to palpate it, feel it.
We can feel the trigger points.
That's what we search for when we're performing the technique.
So it's a palpable, taut band in the muscle.
I'm sure plenty of us have, had that and can recall what it feels like.
But we're able to palpate that, feel it, know where we are in the body based off
of our educational background and our set.
There are safety precautions that we use, when implementing this technique.
The biggest one is, is the lung safety precaution.
And That is, any of the muscles that have been predetermined as a lung precaution.
We have certain grips that we use.
We make sure that there is a bony background so that, when needling
the muscle, there's nothing between.
The needle And the lung field, right?
So there's a bone behind the muscle that we know will protect the lung field.
So Those are some of the bigger safety precautions that we use.
And another one too, or a few more actually, are knowing the
medical history of the patient.
What medications are they on, what other comorbidities might they have that might
affect dry needling And the results.
And then finally, I think This is one of the more important ones, as
well as the constant communication.
Understanding that understanding This is not a technique that has to go on if
the patient is experiencing a certain response it's okay to stop the technique.
So having that communication and laying the groundwork And the educating
the patient on what they should expect to feel, that goes a long
way and helps guide us if we should continue with the technique or not.
Scott Webb: right.
Yeah, I get a sense from you there of sort of like the best practices and
how scientific this really is medical.
This really is, and know, Molly, I don't wanna skip over and assume that just
everybody knows everything about this.
You know, what happened to TJ Wat I mentioned a little bit in my intro
there, but maybe you can just kind of get into the specifics as much as
possible and why, or how what happened to him really highlights the risks
and concerns related to dry needling.
Mollye Lipton: Yeah, so what he experienced was, a partially
collapsed lung or a pneumothorax, while receiving dry needling and.
Basically what that means is that when the needle was inserted, it was hit going
into the pleura, and it hit the lungs and there was air that got in there.
And so the surgery that they talk about that he needed to have was
basically a placement of a chest tube, , in order to evacuate air
that entered that pleural space.
Scott Webb: Yeah, it all sounds really frightening to me.
Even a massively strong human like TJ Watt is, I'm sure it was frightening
for him and his family, and I know we got updates, you know, from his
brother and family along the way.
And Russ, let's talk about the sort of purpose of this, right?
I get a sense that the reason you would do trigger point dry needling
is to help people, to help athletes.
How exactly though does it benefit them ultimately?
Russ Patti: what we look for And what we palpate for, as I alluded to earlier,
are those taut bands in the muscle.
And what those taut bands are are fibers of the muscle.
So all of our muscles are made up of hundreds of thousands of fibers.
But let's say that a muscle in particular is made up of a hundred
fibers and 30 of them are kind of stuck in this contracted state.
And that's what we feel the tightness has.
It's the muscle fibers that are not relaxing and letting go.
So that causes a few different, impairments for us.
And that kind of boils down to three purposes of dry needling.
One of them is to improve range of motion.
So that's to release those muscles, to allow it to move through
a full range of motion again.
And that allows our body part to move through the full range
And for us to fully strengthen.
The next is to improve pain levels.
So when a muscle contracts, chemicals flow in and out of that muscle.
So if we have, , some of those muscle fibers that are stuck in that contracted
state, those chemicals can't get back out.
And that changes the environment of the muscle to an acidic
environment, which induces pain.
It amplifies pain that we may already have.
So it's a great technique to kind of manage that.
And then the third, technique, which personally when I use it, I
use it a lot in this regard, and That is to improve muscle function.
So to go back to that comment before about, muscle fibers, if we have a
hundred fibers in a muscle and 30 of them are kind of stuck in that contracted
state, then that's a 30% deficiency.
So if we can release those fibers.
And let's just say we get rid of 20 of those fibers stuck in the, in that state,
well now the muscle's working at a 10% deficiency as opposed to a 30% deficiency.
So Those are the three primary reasons we use it to improve range of motion,
improve pain, and improve function.
And they actually all kind of coincide with each other.
They could all kind of be rationalized as the same purpose, but You know,
divvying it up amongst those three.
Scott Webb: Yeah, and you did a great job explaining all of this in audio
form, And so I can sort of picture this and see the advantages, you
know, getting athletes back on the field faster rather than waiting for
their muscles to heal on their own.
Right.
Makes me wonder, Molly, though, like about the training requirements.
Like what kind of education and training do practitioners need
to be able to do this safely?
Mollye Lipton: Yeah.
Before we get into that, I wanna go back to the pneumothorax thing one more time.
, Just to say that, you know, in terms of medical procedures that are out there
and adverse reactions and adverse effects that you can have, , a pneumothorax
in a relatively healthy individual is, , you know, while it sounds
really scary, it's actually not like.
Super scary, I think because, you know, the treatment is, like I
said, just kind of placing that chest tube and evacuating the air.
And while that, like I said, sounds scary to a lot of people with all the
medical procedures that are out there And the adverse reactions and effects
that can come from other medical procedures like surgery and, you know.
injections and other things like that.
Like that's relatively non-life threatening when it comes to these
other procedures that you could get.
So, you know, going through this and having the potential of getting
really good results, we don't wanna scare people off and say that, you
know, you shouldn't get dry needling 'cause there's this potential for a
pneumothorax, which obviously that's there and obviously that's scary.
But like, you know.
You could go and have surgery and have something much worse happen as well.
So, you know, just putting
that out there.
in the state of Maryland at least we need, 40 hours of didactic education And then
40 hours of practical hands-on training.
After we've done those 80 hours, we need to take a competency
assessment and pass that.
And then, you know, from there we go through the different, stages
of applying to the Maryland board for them to review all of that.
Sami Ahmed: I tell patient's this all the time and I tell my athletes
this all the time, You know, it is, my point of view, and I know we're
biased 'cause we're all PTs on this call, um, is, is that, you know.
In relatively speaking terms, if you think about the amount of hours that are
spent learning and handling the anatomy and physiology, there really isn't
another medical professional other than potentially an orthopedic surgeon that
spends as much time palpating tissue and muscle as physical therapists do.
And so in order for someone to be able to dry needle in the state of Maryland,
not only do they have to do that.
Those hours of requirements of training that Molly just mentioned, but they have
to be a physical therapist that has an active license working within the state
for a minimum of two years before they can even start applying to get all of that.
So that's after four years of undergrad and three to four years of a doctorate
level of educational anatomy physiology.
Before getting to, the training, the beginning of the training stages
of this So, it is a lot of work that it takes for someone to be.
Certified in the state of Maryland to perform dry needling, especially
for the guys that are here at OACM.
I mean, they're the top-notch candidates.
Scott Webb: Right.
My daughter, uh, Russ knows this 'cause we've spoken before about this.
My daughter wants to be a pt, and I'm just like, are you sure you want
to go to school for seven years?
You know, uh, you know, to be a DPT.
So you're talking like the maybe seven years for that and two years before you
can even begin to work on dry needling.
So as you say, Sammy, obviously a lot of experience, is required, to even
get to the point where you're doing this on patient's or clients, right?
Sami Ahmed: Absolutely.
And it's one of those things where it's built that way on purpose, right?
Like Not every body, not every state, and not every organization, there are some.
Chiropractors at Dry Needle and there are some athletic trainers and there are some
other groups that perform dry needling and their requirements are different.
And we can't really, I don't wanna speak personally, I don't wanna speak to what
Those are 'cause I don't know them fully.
, But Maryland's a pretty strict state.
They only want the cream of the crop to be doing it.
And I can say thankfully, that has helped, reduce the risk,
of things like pneumothorax is to, to any of our patient's.
Scott Webb: That's perfect.
Mollye Lipton: And I feel like, um, as a pt, our hands are like our eyes, you know?
Scott Webb: mm, totally.
Yeah.
I love it.
And I, it makes me wonder, Russ, like, are there some misconceptions?
Can we bust some myths today, if you will, uh, about dry needling?
Russ Patti: Yeah.
I think the biggest one is kind of what Molly talked about earlier.
You know, the difference between acupuncture and dry needling.
Patient's come through the door, they see and hear the word needle.
, And it's kind of like, all right, yeah.
I mean, I got dry needling a couple years ago, or I got acupuncture a few years
ago, and, that's what it should feel like.
So I think, you know, the biggest misconception with That is that
there is a difference and there's a difference of what you're going
to feel during the intervention And also after the intervention.
To kind of piggyback off of That is that, hey, You know, you're
poking me with a needle here.
This is gonna be painful, right.
Not necessarily, to kind of tag onto what Sammy and Molly were
saying, our hands are our eyes.
We spend hours and hours every week and year kind of feeling the musculature.
Then to supplement that with the training And the background, you know,
personally, when I'm doing this with my patient's and when I'm educating
them about what they should feel.
You hardly feel the needle tap into the skin.
You feel the pressure more of my grip during the palpation than you
do the needle tapping into the skin.
As I descend the needle towards that trigger point, which again
is in a safe grip, you start to feel dull, achy sensation.
Come on.
And then when I hit the trigger point, you feel the muscle twitch, much to Molly's
point earlier, kind of feels like a cramp in the middle of the night in your calf.
Now we all know that that's not a pleasant feeling.
It's somewhere between that and kind of a heavy pressure, almost like a vice grip
is kind of cinching down on that area and it just feels like a heavy pressure.
So it's somewhere in between.
But, you know, to call it pain, I wouldn't necessarily put it in that category.
It's kind of this odd sensation that you really don't know what it
feels like until you go through it.
Mollye Lipton: what I always tell my patient's, that , you're
never gonna know what it feels like until you've had it done.
It's just a weird sensation.
Russ Patti: gotta live it.
Mollye Lipton: You gotta live it.
And we've all lived it,
Sami Ahmed: Poked and
Mollye Lipton: uh, with all our training.
We, we practice on each other.
So we've all had
Scott Webb: Yeah, that's what I was assuming.
I was assuming maybe not just, You know, every day just to pass time
around the office, but I'm assuming you, you've all been through this, right?
Mollye Lipton: yeah,
my shoulder's hurting.
I call up Russ, Hey, can you come, uh, stick some needles in me
Scott Webb: uh, I love it.
Sami Ahmed: the number of times I've called someone to say like, Hey, can
you get that one spot in my spine?
Like if you just get it, I can go back to the gym.
I can do my normal things, please.
Scott Webb: I was gonna say, the expression is that a
membership has its privileges.
Right?
You're right there and there are experts in the room like,
Hey, I got a thing over here.
Can you, can you help me with this?
Russ Patti: that's right.
I,
two more misconceptions alongside with that.
Um, you know, it's called trigger point dry needling for a reason.
Sometimes patient's, they're coming to us after they've seen the orthopedic doctor.
So they're expecting, Hey, you know, I, got a cortisone
injection with the doctor before.
Is this gonna be another injection?
The reason it's called dry needling is that there's no
medicine involved within it.
It's all purely, as Molly said, that, solid needle That
is administered into the skin.
There's no medicine involved with it.
There's no air that's getting into it.
It's just purely that needle contacting the muscle.
And then finally, you know, the, last misconception that I, typically hear,
and Sammy and Molly, You know, chime in if you've heard differently, but, You
know, sometimes patient's say, well, how do You know where you're going?
How do You know what you're doing?
Are, you know, are you gonna nick other structures?
Why you're needling and, to continue on the same train?
It's why we're trained in this, that's why the state of
Maryland is so strict about it.
That's why we have to go through so much training.
We know what we're palpating, we know what's behind the muscles.
There are certain muscles in the body that we don't needle because
either a, it's too deep, there's certain vasculature around it.
The risk is not worth the reward in that.
So, you know, Those are part of the, the precautions as well.
But, a misconception is, you know, what is this?
You're closing your eyes and throwing a dart and hope that it sticks.
Not necessarily, not in the least bit.
We're, we're well aware of what we're feeling And what we're needling.
Scott Webb: Yeah.
Sami Ahmed: Russ, I'd say there's, there's a ton of bodies that.
You know, taking something like this, like talking about a pneumothorax
that, you know, again, I'm not sure what exactly what procedure was
done, what muscle was being targeted.
I, I don't think the team has put out any of that information and they may never
put that information out respectfully.
But, you know, talking about muscles around the lung, like if I'm.
Trying to needle a musculature That is a, a lung precaution
around the spine where the lung may be something I'm worried about.
I mean, Russ, you tell me like I, there are certain body types that
I don't feel comfortable doing it 'cause I can't identify and
palpate that structure, right?
If I can't know exactly where I am, I will find another treatment
technique rather than dry needling to address that dysfunction that's there,
whereas other ones, should be fine.
Russ Patti: Yeah, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
And that, and that's, you know, we keep talking about our education.
That's part of it too, is knowing the right person.
Scott Webb: Well, this has been really educational today.
As I said, as a lifelong Steelers fan and rooting for TJ Watt and
anybody else having dry needling.
Good stuff today, Molly.
I just wanna finish up and, and have you speak specifically about the state
of Maryland when it comes to regulatory standards from the time where you
go, you know, I think I wanna do dry needling to actually being able to do it.
Take us through that process.
Mollye Lipton: Sure.
So as Sammy said, you do need to have been practicing as a physical
therapist for two years before you can even start taking the courses.
And then, once you have.
Taken the courses, passed the competency assessment.
In the state of Maryland, you need to have completed all three of those courses.
You need to have passed the competency assessment.
Then you have to apply to the Maryland Board of Physical Therapy
Examiners and be registered for dry needling in the state of Maryland
in order to legally perform it.
I don't know specifically in all of the states, but I know that in some
other states, when you take the first,
course you can then practice on your patient's, the muscles that you
have learned in that first course.
As Sammy mentioned earlier, marilyn's a little bit more, tight on those rules.
So we have to take all three and pass that exam before we can even
start treating our patient's with it.
Scott Webb: Yeah, and I'm just thinking to myself, I'm like, all
right, well, that means in the state of Maryland and certainly at OACM
that patient's are in good hands.
And you mentioned earlier, I'm tying all these things together.
Molly, you mentioned earlier that your hands are your eyes.
I feel like I've,
Mollye Lipton: That's right.
Scott Webb: I feel like I've connected all the dots and I've learned so much today.
I'm sure listeners agree.
So, thank you all for being here.
Russ Patti: Thank you.
Mollye Lipton: Thank you for having us.
Sami Ahmed: Thank you for having us.
Host: And if you're thinking about the benefits of dry needling or other
issues that physical therapy could help with, call us at (443) 478-4449 to book
an appointment and talk to an expert.
Find out more about us online at mdbonedocs.com.
And please remember to share and subscribe to this podcast.
And that's all for today.
I'm Scott Webb, and that was A Bone That's Fixed.