Intro: Welcome to Precision Pathology Podcast, featuring interviews with authors
and global thought leaders who are at the forefront of technological advances in
precision diagnostics and therapeutics.
Your host is Dr.
George Netto, the Simon Flexner Professor and Chair of Pathology
and the Laboratory Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania's Perelman
School of Medicine in Philadelphia.
Here is Dr.
Netto.
George Netto, MD (Host): Welcome to a new episode of P Cubed.
My guest today is Dr.
Felix.
Sam.
He's a professor of pathology, actually neuropathology and to be more specific,
and a vice chair of the Department of Neuropathology at Heidelberg University.
hospital and he's also the director of molecular
neuropathology, in that hospital.
And as I mentioned, he's a professor in the university, which, I just learned,
is the oldest university in Germany.
so we were kind of bragging and comparing notes.
Uh, UPenn versus Heidelberg.
It's, really a pleasure to have.
Felix.
I'll, say just a couple of words about his, impressive, background.
Felix, has over 300, somewhere I saw 400, but at least 300 publications.
and these are all in prominent, journals.
very high impact.
Journals, including the topic of our conversation today from Nature Medicine.
more importantly, Felix, has been an important player in the field, with,
patents on, methylation profiling and on the technology and neuropath.
And, he is a member of the WHO Working Group in Neuropath that, helped us
with a classification, his involvement in ESMO writing ESMO guideline.
So really, an exemplary precision neuropathologist that really
putting, our name, on the map.
today, as I mentioned, we're gonna discuss, a study that.
he led, in a multi-center validation of a platform, around doing intraoperative
rapid, molecular profiling of brain tumor be, believe it or not, the timeframe
described in a per is 30 minutes.
we have a hard time getting regular frozen sections in 30 minutes, so
here, potentially we can, classify the tumor and I'll let him talk about that.
So, really, really.
very advanced, novel, technology.
thank you, Felix for accepting the invite.
and I'm really excited to talk about the paper.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Yeah.
Thank you.
It's my pleasure to be here with you today, George, and to talk about our
research, or should I say actually about our practice because we have
meanwhile transferred that already pretty close to application, for patient's.
But I will talk about that later.
So just for the beginning you said That is Interoperative.
Yes, That is true.
But in the beginning, that was not our aim.
So we thought of something else before we first thought.
How can we put all of the different markers that the new WHO classification
now recommends, or even mandates since 2021 for brain tumors?
How can we put all of that into one assay?
Because we have methylation now, especially in brain tumor diagnostics,
also for sarcomas in some instances.
We even have some tumor types in the CNS classification where
methylation is an essential criterion.
So it's really needed in daily practice.
But of course, we also have a lot of.
Seeing Nucle that are important for diagnostics, for treatment in physician
oncology, obviously gene fusions And so on And so on, and all of that
currently is done in separate tests and therefore there's an immense workload
for a neuropathology laboratory, obviously, as also for general pathology.
And that somehow elicited a debate about the applicability actually of the World
Health Organization classification.
In the entire world because many countries, many communities,
colleagues told us, well, That is not applicable actually for centers
outside Europe and North America.
And that was actually our, first intent to put all of this into a setting where you
do not need like a million-dollar device for sequencing and half a million-dollar
device for the next test And so on.
So That is why you put all of that one essay, And then later we figured
out it can also be pretty fast.
George Netto, MD (Host): Excellent.
So you touch on a very, important point is the mandate of WHO.
If, you keep the classification, keep evolving into molecular and brain CNS,
led with the methylation and keep adding.
Essential criteria.
it's making it very hard for, a wide, swath of the globe
to use that classification.
So, we'll see.
Hopefully this, even if it's sometimes a hundred thousand dollars, it's still
very expensive for certain communities.
even in the us not every, lab is a reference lab.
So, let's dive in.
we talk about the background, the need.
So how did you approach it?
what is novel about this?
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Yeah, so in the first part of the paper, we are leveraging
this long grid sequencing technology, specifically nanopore sequencing.
And the advantage of the Nanopore sequencing is that it works totally
different from all the other traditional sequencing that we are using.
So different from AL sequencing, but also different from the short grid sequencing
that most of us use in daily practice.
NGS.
It does not sequence the DNA by replicating it like we do it on a
flow cell or like we did it with sequencing before, but it just takes the
native DNA and pulls it through a po.
Therefore, the name Nanopore So, it has a thousand of pos on the flow
cell and there is an electrical current, And that current is changed.
Depending on what base is pulled through So, it identifies what base is actually
in the pore and one base by a time.
It identifies the sequence of the DNA fragment in every given
pore, and it cannot even identify or not only identify four bases.
It can also identify the modulation of the basis.
And there we have everything right?
So we get a sequence And the modulation status in one assay.
George Netto, MD (Host): And to rephrase it for, our audience.
So This is, you're not having to amplify, you're not having, to go
all these additional steps, and fish certain segments of DNA out
and, so you're dwelling with the native DNA and putting it through
pores with that voltage variation.
You're saying which base This is and is there methylation or not?
Sounds space age.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: And we still do an enrichment.
We do not do an enrichment before we do the enrichment in real-time.
And I just briefly explained that.
So normally for our NGS applications, we would do an amplicon approach
or an hybrid capture approach to get the areas of interest.
but here we actually use a specific twist on the nano device doing
the sequencing of A DNA fragment.
We already align the sequence of the fragment That is in the PO before it is
finished, so we know what area of the DNA or of the genome actually is in the po.
And we have predefined a set of genes that are relevant for brain tumor diagnostics.
I-D-H-B-R-A-F, you name it.
If the DNA fragment belongs to these interesting areas, the
poor keeps on sequencing it.
But if it turns out to be a fragment outside of the areas of interest for
brain tumors, the voltage is changed And the DNA fragment is ejected And
the power pulls another DNA fragment out of this entire, and again, checks
if there is interesting or not.
And that means it is enriching in real-time without any
library preparation before.
George Netto, MD (Host): So it's focusing on really what's
important for the tumor at hand.
so you, because you have those set of tumors.
So I guess what.
Called adaptive sampling based sequencing.
So it's adapting.
Here's an area, This is of interest for brain tumors.
Let me focus on that sequence.
More native fragments of DNA, And then This is not,
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: the point.
Yes.
And you could also dynamically change it.
So if there is a publication tomorrow that tells you, oh, there's another gene
of interest in brain tumors, which does not happen so frequently anymore today.
But if that would be the case, you could just change the table
That is behind the program And the algorithm would add another gene.
George Netto, MD (Host): So basically the advantage of doing something
like That is the rapidity, right?
Because you can just focus on these spots, so you can do it in a faster way.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: right.
right.
So you, save the entire time you would have for the library preparation, you just
do a very small step that just makes the DNA applicable on the li on the flow cell.
But otherwise, the entire preparation other than DNA extraction, of
course, the entire other preparation is just not needed anymore.
George Netto, MD (Host): Excellent.
so potentially you can do.
The profiling in 30 minutes you're mentioning, which is
a span, for intraoperative.
But I realize your workflow is for this study is, two different phases And the
30 minutes, not like you get everything.
You're gonna still the next day or next 24 hours get the comprehensive.
So can you explain to our audience what you get in the 30 minutes and how
that guide your, therapeutics or not?
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Of course.
So that's a good point.
So we actually have a two step approach.
It is one sequencing procedure, but we have a time point That is
comparatively early, that can be 30 minutes, can be a little bit
quicker, can also be a little bit.
Longer where we get a methylation profile of about 90 different classes
or a smaller set of methylation class that can be identified.
And we got the copy number alterations that actually goes pretty, pretty
quick sometimes in a few minutes.
And it's especially helpful for like one P 19 Q and oligo dental glioma for
seven 10 in glioblastoma And so on.
So this.
A rough methylation profile and copy number we get pretty quick.
And in most cases, That is of course already highly informative.
So if you have a diffuse glioma in the frozen section and you see it has seven
10 that goes to glioblastoma, if you see it has one P 19 Q that would rather go to.
Oligo glioma And so on.
So That is very useful.
And even for Mening, you have talked in the other podcast about Mening,
about changes like one P deletion And so on, or CDK and two A so that
you also could possibly already see early, And that makes a difference, of
course, for the surgeon to know that.
And if you dentures keep on sequencing maybe two hours,
four hours or so, then we also.
Reach the read depth that we need in diffuse glioma to call SNVs.
That is not possible yet in 30 minutes because the read
depth is just not sufficient, especially in this diffuse tumors.
But then we can see if there is IDH mutant if there is third mutation.
Even that in Theron region of the promoter, we can even see
the third promoter mutations.
And because of the long read technology, we sometimes even
capture structural varices.
That with conventional sequencing are harder to detect
because the reads are shorter.
And if there are structural variations, then it is harder to align them.
And That is sometimes even we've seen that in the manuscript data
also, that can even be superior to the conventional sequencing.
George Netto, MD (Host): Very impressive.
So, that second phase, so the first step.
Is enough to inform you, is this an oligo, is this GBM and like you
mentioned, 91 class, I'm learning here, you guys in Heidelberg.
So you developed a 180 4 class is is the final target so that you
can get to later, in few hours.
and those.
Long, deletion because there's long reads.
you're looking at structural variants.
You're getting fusions.
You're getting SMVs, like the mutations you mentioned.
Wow.
Impressive.
And all that, is possible as a second phase.
by the way, I just wanted to make sure for the audience that, the study
encompassed 300, and one, samples, right.
including 18 samples that were sequenced intraoperatively.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Yes.
George Netto, MD (Host): And these are, uh, my understanding from
Germany, of course, Heidelberg and other's, and from Norway, UK
and, one in the US Is it Chicago?
Am I correct?
The US is,
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: We had cases from different sites in the US for
example, from Cincinnati for example.
We had cases from Oslo, and very instrumental in our.
Project was a group that we collaborate with in Nottingham.
They also had actual intraoperative samples and from the other partners,
more or less across the world.
We received data that was not generated only on Nanopore.
We also received data that were generated on other methylation platforms.
George Netto, MD (Host): We'll talk about that in a second.
So, This is awesome.
So This is what you just described, that's what you called
it, the Rapid CNS platform.
that, gives you that 30 minutes, but, Reminded me now that let's talk about
the second platform in the paper or the second tool that you developed.
You called it MNP Flex, methylation, neuropathology.
So that was our initial MNP, the Heidelberg system.
And This is the MNP Flex.
So the flex element is what you're trying to describe, that it, amenable
to data generated by any, platforms.
Correct.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Exactly, exactly.
So the initial Heidelberg classifier was trained and basically completely
developed on errors, methation errors, And we have like more than
a hundred thousand data points.
Meanwhile from methylation areas, but.
While some neuropathology centers or also other centers have this methylation
array system And the scanner And so on, there are of course many more
institutions that have a sequencer, but not the array scanner system.
Some institutions that have already bi fit panels or that have any other
technologies for methylation analysis, And we thought to make that more available
And also more accessible for colleagues that may have sequencing devices.
But nothing else so far.
We developed a system that can take in all kinds of methylation data, as you say.
So Biid converted, DNA, also DNA from the area.
Of course nar sequencing data, so whatever gives you any methylation information.
And this we then called a flexible version of the MNP classifier
and therefore in short, MNP Flex.
George Netto, MD (Host): So basically they, if somebody just.
Put that data into, so I imagine it is web-based and, similar to the
other's, where you can dump that data that you have on the methylation
and it will help you classify.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Exactly right.
So there is the only version, an only line version available.
And as always, in such instances, it's of course important to say that this
version currently is for research use.
Of course, we are validating that we are developing that to a certified product,
but That is now pretty fresh research product, obviously from the publication.
But we see already quite some interest from colleagues And we also for our
collaboration partners provide that so that they can use it locally.
And we have.
Already seen first publications subsequent to ours that come up where
colleagues independently of us just use this tool and have pretty nice results.
Also, for example, on liquid samples with this technology.
Yes,
yes.
George Netto, MD (Host): So you plug it in and you get their profile.
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: So it's still challenging.
And I have also not seen much data on plasmas, liquid biopsy from CNS tumors.
But There are some studies that actually show that there's just less DNA shedded
into the blood compared to the CSF.
but from the CSF, other colleagues as mentioned, but also in our studies
we see that there is very promising.
George Netto, MD (Host): Wonderful.
Wow.
is very impressive it sounds like it's gonna be a very useful tool and.
Simplify things, just, without mentioning numbers, but, is the Nanopore technology
being, is that more expensive or less expensive, to, let's say a place doesn't
have that technology, is it, how does it compare, you know, to the existing
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Yeah, that's a good question and That is not so easily
answered because there are two different components That is the initial expense
for the devices, And then of course the running cost for individual samples.
The initial capital expense for the device is in a well low percentage
of conventional sequences.
However, the region cost on a running basis, That is actually not much different
from what you would have otherwise.
Of course, it depends on what you really compare, what sequencing depth
you compare, what kind of levity of CNVs you compare, And so on.
But the reaction costs are not like a dimension different from
what we would've otherwise.
George Netto, MD (Host): Excellent.
So potentially, and because we started this.
Trying to democratize, these amazing discoveries that you
and other teams are making.
So, the idea is, we want the entire globe to be able to capitalize
on this precision, personalized, diagnostics that will impact outcome.
So, it sounds like at least you can do a reference center without,
inordinate amount of investment, at least that first initial.
Even though it doesn't have to be fully granular, but it guides, the management
of the patient's, in countries where, the full technology is not available.
Is that how you see it?
do
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Exactly.
Exactly.
And we see that already developing.
So we have founded a consortium, which we call the MNP International
Outreach Consortium, And we have partner institutions from
literally all around the world.
So from Chile, from Brazil, from Argentina, but also from
Indonesia, from India, And so on.
We have already for three years now, every year once a workshop where people from all
these countries come to Heidelberg, where we discuss with them, where we actually
can make these technologies, but also other position, oncology technologies
more available, more accessible.
And we now have in several of these countries, at least one national hub
where this technology And this kind of of brain tumor diagnostics is now
available for the humanities There.
George Netto, MD (Host): That is wonderful.
And of course, being online for other countries who have the technology, but
they can plug in, the AI part or the classifier part and take it the next step.
How wonderful, really Felix and your team, I know Heidelberg led the word
in this, and now a lot of us including here, and I know, several places in
the US are trying To develop this.
And, of course, classifiers need always validations and more cases you do.
but, really congratulation on, uh, huge impact for these difficult tumors
and, to help these patient's is, is something you should be very proud of.
thank anything else you wanna mention about, and you touched
upon, Mattia, sn, Wright.
Last, meningioma, podcast we have.
So it's not, totally fortuitous that we had back to back, CNS discussion.
'cause there's a lot of advances in CNS and it's a welcome advance,
because finally we can, push the envelope in treating these patient's.
anything else you wanna tell our audience about what's down the
road, in your shop or other places?
Felix Sahm, MD, PhD, MBA: Yeah, I think what is currently a hot topic, certainly
beyond neuropathology, everywhere in our field is that we may even get
quicker And also cheaper in diagnostics by applying AI on histology images.
So we have currently already a paper submitted in revenue where we
have a high kind of over a hundred.
Print tumor types that are identified just from an H and e section, And
we are working on a similar project also for intraoperative application.
So just imagine you would have a frozen section and you not only get the
information, it is epi or oli to glioma, but you get the information like it is an.
Said FDA fusion positive epi just from the h and e.
I think these are developments not only obviously, not only at our department,
but all across our discipline that will be maybe more transformative
even than what we have talked about.
George Netto, MD (Host): Absolutely true.
That's, the hope.
and really these are the topics we wanna continue to talk about.
and maybe we'll bring you back.
in the future once you publish these other papers, but to have these digital
biomarkers that we can do that will be ultimate democratization, right?
Because even in, middle to low, resource countries, you can just snap, an iPhone
image of the HNE and to, through an ai at least get some preliminary.
That will be awesome.
thank you again and, It's been a pleasure, having you here and, uh.
And, this happened to be, our, fifth episode, this calendar year.
And, the holidays are coming.
So I wanna wish, you and, our audience happy holidays we have, a lot.
Uh, to look forward to in the new year, more great speakers like you
to come and visit us and, hopefully, we build upon this first year success.
Thank you very much.
Outro: We would like to extend our sincere gratitude to today's guests
for their valuable contributions and thoughtful perspectives.
We also wish to thank our dedicated production team and the
technical team at DoctorPodcasting.
Special thanks to Jennifer Vepler for her dedication and skill
in coordinating our episodes.
Please note the opinions expressed by our speakers are their own and
do not necessarily represent the Perelman School of Medicine or
the University of Pennsylvania.
Thank you for listening, and we look forward to welcoming
you back for future episodes.