Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Welcome to Pediatric Front Lines from
Shriners Children's, where we explore the best in pediatric care.
I'm your host, Dr.
Bob Underwood, over the past decade, anterior cruciate ligament or ACL injuries
in pediatric and adolescent athletes.
Have more than doubled driving, renewed interest in biologic and tissue
preserving approaches to ACL treatment.
today, we'll explore how innovations fit alongside established standards of care.
So joining us today are Dr.
Sean Waldron and Dr.
Jennifer Weiss, who will bring complimentary perspectives on ACL injury.
ACL Injury Management Doctors, welcome to pediatric front lines.
Dr Sean Waldron: Thanks, Bob.
Dr Jennifer Weiss: Thank
you.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): So This is really interesting and really advanced stuff.
let's start by talking about kinda what is the gold standard, Dr.
Weiss, before we talk about the newer approaches, can you really walk us
through the most common traditional ACL reconstruction techniques used today?
And what would you consider a gold standard?
and why would you say that's gold standard?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: Yeah,
that's a great starting point.
So the most traditional management of a young athlete.
Who tears their ACL?
first of all, the first bridge that we
consider is this, this person, an athlete, and do they need surgery?
And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that some
people don't.
if they're not an athlete, if they're not doing cutting and pivoting
sports, there is a small population that may not be the
right fit for surgery.
And we have to think about their head space.
so their emotional,
presence, their family's ability to follow through.
So I know that's not what we're gonna talk about today, but I don't want us to
forget that not everybody needs surgery.
if somebody does need surgery, the gold standard is an ACL
reconstruction.
The difference between
reconstruction and repairs repair is we're bridging together tissue that already
exists.
Versus reconstructions, we're taking other tissue to replace anatomically,
in most cases, tissue That is torn up and cannot be repaired or salvaged.
So the gold standard, for the young
athlete is autographed, meaning from their
own body.
Not
cadaveric.
that's gold
standard to take their own tissue.
And then there's three main choices that
probably still have equipoise in terms of where we take the tissue from.
One in equipoise, meaning they're all, evidence-based
about equal.
One is the patella tendon,
which is the area that connects the kneecap down to The shin bone.
The second is the
quadriceps tendon, which is the area that
connects.
the thigh muscle down to the kneecap.
And then the third is, the hamstring, which runs behind the knee.
So that's gold standard.
historically for the young athletes.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): And about how many of these ACL
reconstructions have you performed using those particular approaches?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: so there's gray hair under these blonde fake highlights.
I've been doing this for
23 years,
And in a former life I was doing close to a hundred a year, so I've, done a lot
of these.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): you mentioned graft choices.
what patient injury characteristic would influence your graft choice in
your particular
practice?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: so, for me there's characteristics about the patient in
terms of, their demand in terms of are are they a large football player?
In which case the gold standard is probably in the NFL.
physicians still consider gold standard for them, the patella tendon.
And And then depending on, Demand as well as body habitus.
then we move into quadriceps and hamstrings.
One of the issues, especially for the younger women athlete, is sometimes
people have a predilection for pain in the front of their knees.
Something called patellofemoral syndrome or anterior knee pain.
They have that predilection.
I'm not going to use their patellar tendon 'cause it increases their
risk of having that in the future.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): So with that foundation, Dr.
Waldron, can you outline the principles behind this bridge enhanced
ACL restoration or bear, and how it differs mechanistically from
conventional reconstruction, and how does the biologic rationale of bear
compare to graft based approaches?
Dr Sean Waldron: I'm gonna back up actually a little bit and I'll
explain why reconstruction became the gold standard, and that's
because many, many years ago, sir.
Would do repairs, and they found that the failure rate, meaning the recurrence
rate was unacceptably high and they were looking for another way to treat
this problem, And so they started doing reconstructions and that's been the
gold standard for a very long time.
somewhat recently, a doctor at Boston Children's, Martha Murray started doing
some research looking at the possibility that you might be able to repair the ACL.
And interestingly, she started this research back in 1989, but
it wasn't until 2020 that the.
Bayer, which is bridge enhanced ACL repair, and I'll just say Bayer from
now on 'cause it's easier, became, FDA approved for use in patient's.
in 2015.
That was the first-time that she did the first bear, actually the first,
surgery, while she was researching it.
And what she looked at was the fact that.
The ACL is a ligament that's inside and inside the knee joint.
It's pretty rare that we are dealing with having to do surgery
on ligaments, inside joints.
a lot of the, ligaments that are injured, are outside joints, and they heal fine.
So the example that I would give would be the MCL, so the MCL,
the medial collateral ligament.
It tears every once in a while.
It heals pretty much on its own.
the reason for This is that it forms a blood clot to bridge the
area that was torn And then it, heals, through that blood clot.
The problem with the ACL is that the blood clot that forms is on the
inside of the knee joint And the synovial fluid inside the knee joint
tends to break down the blood clot and prevent the ACL from healing.
And that's why ACL reconstruction became the gold standard.
Well, Martha said, well, what if we could come up with a material that
would bridge that gap and keep the blood clot there, protect the blood
clot from the synovial fluid, breaking it down and allow the ACL to repair.
And that became the bear implant, which is a collagen based implant.
It looks kind of like a, marshmallow almost.
It's about this big.
And, the way that we do this surgery is, we repair the ACL, we put in this
bare implant into the knee joint, And that protects the ACL repair.
It stays around for about six weeks or so, And then it actually dissolves
away, so it's not there anymore.
it's really changed the way we look at, possible treatment options for
the ACL, because as you can guess.
Doing a reconstruction, requiring taking a piece from somewhere else is going to
have effects on that area of the body.
And if you don't have to do that, then that's an advantage.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Yeah, it would be a huge advantage.
I would see that.
So what limitations or unanswered questions in traditional ACL
reconstruction did bear aim to address?
And in what scenarios does it offer a meaningfully different option?
Dr Sean Waldron: So the main difference is that in ACL
reconstruction you have the graft.
That's what we call the piece of the tendon that's taken for.
The reconstruction, you have what's called graft site morbidity.
So you have the different options that Dr.
Weiss was just talking about.
The, quadriceps or the patellar tendon, or the hamstring tendon.
taking a piece of that tendon is always going to cause some sort of an effect,
some weakness at some point, you know, initially, that patient needs to rebuild.
Rebuild that, area of their body.
So doing the bear will take that part outta the equation and make
the rehab a little bit easier.
There's also a couple other things that kind of came about.
Surprisingly, during the research in the animal models, they found that there
was a decreased rate of osteoarthritis.
In the animals that had bear versus ACL reconstruction.
Now we won't know if that's the case in humans for many, many
years, so we can't answer that question, but it's a theoretical
possibility that that's a good option.
in terms of the graft site morbidity, though, you can imagine that a patient
that has a bear is going to have a somewhat easier rehab compared to
the reconstruction, because they don't have that other surgical site.
what I found is that those patient's do seem to be ready for returning
to their activities a little sooner.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): And that's phenomenal.
Dr.
Weiss, from your perspective, does a repair based approach like Bear fit within
the current ACL treatment algorithms?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: I'm gonna throw two curve balls if that's okay.
curveball number one is that there's also a setting, a very limited setting in
which some of us believe a repair is okay even without the collagen bear implant.
And That is if the tissue actually.
Tears right off of the femur or the thigh bone and there's
enough tissue to get up there.
Some of us, myself included, very rarely will actually
repair it right back up there.
So that's one surgery that we all need to be prepared to at least consider.
And then I'm gonna throw a weirder curve ball and my last name is
Weiss and there was another Dr.
Weiss who, was my dad And that guy in 1985.
Was part of a research project that took a carbon ligament that,
contributed to enhancement in a similar fashion to what we're talking about.
That ligament from 1985 to about 1989 looked like it was kind of doing okay.
This carbon based implant around the late eighties, early nineties,
it started to be understood that that wasn't a great option.
And so that's some of the history of where Dr.
Murray kind of picked up.
So I have a familial kind of, bias toward an interest in this.
So, This is not the first attempt to make a better milieu.
Or environment for the ACL.
and I am all for it.
To me, what I wanna be very careful of is, who is the right person for this?
My personal population of the patient's that I take care of are very young
and, even young for the Shriner system.
I think Dr.
Waldron and I may even differ a little bit in who we get to take
care of, And the youngest patient's have both for ACL reconstruction.
And for repair And for bear have the highest rate of ret tearing
or messing up the surgery.
And so the youngest ones, Dr.
Murray, in her literature and her science has showed us that they're
the ones that under the age of 16 have a 27% rate of failure, and 16 to 17
have about an 18% rate of failure.
And those aren't too different than from the ACL reconstruction.
So the youngest patient's in my hands are the ones that I don't
tend to consider, This route.
And then lastly, what I'll say is that what's awesome about the bear and any sort
of repair is we don't burn any bridges.
So if that kid happens to be the one in four or one in five who repairs, we still
have all of the options to reconstruct And we haven't done too much surgery.
So no bridges burned is really important.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): and that's phenomenal.
You still have that option.
a, as a follow on, in those rare cases.
So Dr.
Waldron, what does the ideal bear candidate look like?
I mean, how important are factors like age, skeletal maturity, injury,
timing, those types of things?
Dr Sean Waldron: Well, interestingly, like Dr.
Weiss alluded to, the most important is probably the tear itself.
So the tear based on MRI And the tear when we look at it, under arthroscopy.
So we're looking at it, you know, with a camera and.
The more tissue you have left to repair where it tears off the femur, the better.
So if it's a mid substance tear or higher, then you have an option
to repair it and use the bear.
as Dr.
Weiss says, if it's really high up there, really proximal,
then you can just repair it.
so.
the minimum necessary is about a centimeter of tissue at the base
where it inserts on the tibia.
So as long as you have at least a centimeter of tissue, you can repair it.
The other thing that I think is probably more important than the time from
injury is how healthy the tissue is.
however That is related to time from injury.
So if it's been maybe two or three months since the injury
And we go in there to repair it, usually the tissue is pretty good.
Assuming it wasn't a significant.
Tear where everything is completely torn up.
Usually, when I'm hoping to do a bear or a repair, I go in there with
the plan to suture it back together.
and if it feels like, and This is a, you know, more of a surgical
technique thing, if it feels like the tissue is holding the stitches well.
Then I know that it is repairable.
And the other thing is that getting a sense of the blood flow to the ligament,
which Those are all surgical factors.
Now, age, interestingly, when the FDA approval first came through.
That they had restricted it to 14 and older.
But that has changed recently in the past year.
And now there's no age restriction at all So, it is approved for any age, and
it is approved for, kids that have open growth plates or close growth plates.
So Those are all options.
So that's actually not a limiting factor.
the other part of the FDA approval is that they say that
it should be done within 50 days.
I don't actually use that.
I don't think that it should be that set.
like I said, the things that matter to me more are the quality of the tissue.
So if it's been three months, if you've gotten to surgery three months
from the injury And the tissue looks good, and feels good, then you can do
the bear and it's not a restriction.
Even if it's outside that 50 days now, I'm sure there's a certain point where
six months out maybe it's not a good idea, or maybe a year out it's not a good idea.
And not like we're putting off surgery that long for these kids.
It's more about patient's that presented late.
but just like with ACL reconstruction, the best results are when we can, get
to that patient, within a reasonable timeframe, within a, couple months.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): absolutely.
And Dr.
Weiss, what factors would lead you to favor reconstruction
over repair based approaches?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: So number one, I agree with Dr.
Waldron.
It is about the anatomy And what I tell my patient's is.
We're gonna be making a game time decision.
I tell them about the pros and cons of both surgeries and I'm prepared in my
operating room to do both, the repair or the reconstruction every single time.
And then once I get into the knee and I do something for the orthopedists, of
this generation, they don't do it as much.
Which is before I proceed with my surgery, I do an arthroscopy.
So I actually get in there and I look and I feel, and I pull, and
I have residents that are rotating with me these days saying, wow, I
haven't seen people do that before.
Because for efficiency's sake it does make a little bit more sense.
Sense to go quicker, get in there, get your graft, get it going,
shave off some time from surgery.
I don't do that 'cause I wanna keep the opportunity open.
so it's very much about what anatomy that I see, how the tissue feels.
And sometimes I will also do what Dr.
Waldron ISS talking about.
if I think that it's gonna hold a suture, I will try to put
that suture in and test it out.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): absolutely.
and I like your analogy that you're making a game time call.
It's something that athletes who we're talking about
right now, they can relate to
Dr Jennifer Weiss: They do.
They like that.
They're like, we get that.
You
go coach.
Dr Sean Waldron: Can I add on something to what, Dr.
Weiss just said?
I completely agree.
It's also a game time decision for me, same exact thing.
And I use that wording, so that's funny that you say that too.
but the other thing, even before you start the arthroscopy, when the patient's
asleep, I do an exam under anesthesia And that can sometimes change what I do.
So.
we're not really talking about, some of the other parts of ACL surgery
today, but one of the surgeries that I'm sure we both do is something
called a lateral articular tenodesis.
A little bit, probably beyond the scope of this conversation, but I do an exam
under anesthesia to see how unstable the knee is, and sometimes that can
push me to add on other surgeries.
So same kind of conversation that I have with that patient.
we might do a repair, we might do a bear, we might do a reconstruction.
We might even do this other thing that's called an LET.
and it's a whole other surgery that we do on the side of your knee.
and it all just depends on how, it looks when we're in there.
And we can't always tell that before the surgery.
it's better done when they're asleep.
So, just something I wanted to mention.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Absolutely.
the exam under anesthesia, is so important to be able to do when the
patient actually is relaxed and you can actually look at that stability.
So, Dr.
Waldron, how many barrier implants have you performed now And what are some
short and long-term outcomes that you have observed based on those implants?
Dr Sean Waldron: So I started using the bear implant almost three years ago.
and that's when I did my first one.
And over those years I've now done almost 20, I actually have one scheduled
tomorrow, so we'll see how that one goes.
I have been pleasantly surprised at the early outcomes so out of that number I
have had zero recurrences, so no repairs.
a wide range of patient ages.
In fact, the youngest that I've done this on is.
I believe 11 years old, so I have done it on a younger patient.
And that boy is playing, club soccer now and, doing great.
and I've had some football players in there and, different types of athletes,
and non-athletes too, thankfully.
and they're all in general doing well.
I have had one patient that I had to bring back to the operating room
because she had what's called art warp fibrosis, which is knee stiffness.
and that's a common thing, and I wouldn't say common.
it's a risk.
It's either surgery.
the interesting thing about having a patient with that.
That had a bear is that it gives us another look, to see
how the ACL repair is healing.
So this patient was around five months out from her original surgery.
She was lacking, about.
20 to 30 degrees of, flexion.
she couldn't bend her knee all the way.
So we took her to the operating room.
We, cleaned up the adhesions and I got a nice look at the ACL repair and
it looked like a normal ACL it looked amazing, So, It was really exciting.
and her knee was stable And we were able to, get it to bend.
So that's been the one patient that I had to take back.
and it was.
Actually a, really nice opportunity.
I know that I'm not gonna have zero recurrences for the rest of my career.
I'm sure that some of them are gonna ret and I'm gonna have to deal with them.
But as Dr.
Wise said, the nice thing is with that the studies have shown that the, results
of a bear, revision to a reconstruction are better than if it was a revision
from a previous ACL reconstruction.
that's a really important concept that patient's wouldn't really understand.
But as surgeons, we think about it.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Yeah, absolutely.
And so Dr.
Weiss, what outcome measures matter most when you're
evaluating newer ACL techniques?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: the gold standard is the patient reported outcome?
And so that's what we hang our hat on.
However, it's really important for us as sports surgeons, to understand return
to play and level of return to play.
So Those are the things that I'm the most interested in.
and I just.
Circle back to one other thing that I've been thinking about a lot this
week as I've been thinking about this podcast, which is the words that
we're using ACL repair reconstruction.
And I'm actually gonna be a linguist and go back to what Dr.
Murray's been using in her titles, which is restoration.
And I think that that's the, goal of this bare procedure is to actually restore.
so I just think that's kind of cool.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): I do too.
so Dr.
Weiss, what do you think are the potential advantages of Bear and where
do you think its limitations remain?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: I'm gonna repeat what Dr.
Waldron said.
There's no, um, pain from where we take tissue to do a reconstruction.
that's awesome.
The recovery period is easier.
And then I'm gonna give a flip side of That is when patient's
have an easier recovery period, we're dealing with teenagers.
I have three teenagers in my family.
They're weird.
Like time of life people, right?
I adore them.
That's why I work with them.
That's why I have them.
however, they don't have a frontal lobe yet, and they need our frontal lobes.
And what can happen during this recovery process is if they're feeling,
there are some surgeons that taught me use A BTB, it hurts the most,
And then they won't push it in the recovery before they're supposed to.
So then we've got the flip side of these people feeling really good.
and I worry about that.
I become very.
Stern with my patient's.
If I am doing a repair, I become very stern about you better listen to me.
'cause your body's not gonna give you the cues of pain.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Dr.
Waldron, how does that align with what you're seeing?
Dr Sean Waldron: Oh, I completely agree with, everything she said.
And the one thing that I want to talk about a little bit based on
that return to play, so we have a pretty in-depth conversation with
the family before the surgery about return to play just so that they know.
And that's, usually the hardest part of the conversation is you will not return
to full sports for at least a year.
And there's always tears.
it's hard for them to understand.
but then, our job becomes kind of a coach.
We're coaching them along throughout this rehab process.
and one other point I wanna make, a bit of a pitch for the Shriner system.
so, I myself utilize our motion analysis lab to determine
readiness for return to sports.
it's an incredible.
Uh, opportunity.
We have the largest system of motion analysis labs in the world, And we
use 'em for all kinds of reasons.
But my sports analysis for return to play is key in helping me
to determine if kids are ready.
And it's really not something that that many people do, and I find it to be a
really useful tool for return to play.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): and I agree, having those discussions with athletes,
they're generally highly motivated.
To participate and to compete.
And sometimes it is hard to have that conversation to almost, in fact demotivate
them or, redirect that motivation.
I think all of us have, lived that.
Alright.
the question that we often get as providers.
If this were your kid, if this were your mom, that I don't know how many
times I've been asked these questions in terms of taking care of patient's.
But here's the question.
If this was your child and they met the criteria for both bear
and traditional reconstruction.
How would you think through that decision And what factors would
weigh most heavily for you?
Dr.
Weiss, we'll start with you.
You said you have teenagers, so let's ask that question And then we'll move over
to Dr.
Waldron.
Dr Jennifer Weiss: I actually have the, not, it's not one of my three
children, but one of the best friends of one of my children tore their ACL
on my watch last week on a ski trip.
And this young woman is like a daughter to me, and I am in that position.
I am rooting for her surgeon, who, it's not gonna be me.
She's too close to me.
I'm rooting for her surgeon to use quadricep, tendon, reconstruction if she's
not fully repairable off of the femur.
that's me being super careful and you already heard my bias of my
dad's journey, so I'm still waiting.
I'm on the sidelines waiting a little bit more about this bear.
and Dr.
Waldron iss teaching me a lot about it with his patient.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): that's awesome and great to hear from
clinicians from multiple perspectives.
Dr.
Waldron, same question to you.
Dr Sean Waldron: I feel like I would have to be honest and say that the way
that I treat my patient's would be the way that I want my children treated.
So I would expect, the same game time decision you have, the bear as an
option, you have repair as an option.
You have, whatever reconstruction option would work best for
that child and their age.
so yeah, certainly I would want to do the same exact thing.
Now, my oldest.
Daughter is nine years old.
So, little bit of a different, conversation for that age group.
And my younger one is six, so, hopefully we don't have to have
that conversation anytime soon.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): Indeed, As we're finishing up, is there anything
that we haven't covered that you think referring clinicians should
consider when they're counseling their families, or their patient's
about ACL treatment options today?
Dr Jennifer Weiss: I've been thinking, through this so
much in the last two years.
I joined Shriners two years ago and I adore, adore this organization And the
biggest reason is I'm the same doctor.
I'm the same sort.
As I was in my prior, careers, however, what I have.
For my patient's here is this wraparound care And this ability
to make sure that their therapy is not, delayed or, cut short because
of authorizations and because of, looking for, insurance companies to
agree with us about what they need.
So to me, what I tell the families is the therapy is as if not, and
more important than me as a surgeon.
And that means their participation with the therapy.
So it's not just going to therapy and having therapy done to them, it is
them doing their work and strength with the therapist is their partners.
So I think that cannot be underestimated.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): We're all part of our own healing, I think
is a really important message.
Dr.
Waldron, anything you'd like to
add as we close?
Dr Sean Waldron: I don't know how Jen just stole my answer, but, that was incredible.
So, one of the amazing things here is that we have, a multidisciplinary clinic.
So I have a therapist with me in my sports medicine clinic, And we work side by side.
We're seeing the patient's together.
And so I'm getting the therapist in there.
From the day we talk about surgery, to tell them about the rehab so that, you
know, we're talking about rehab before we've even done the surgery and to show
them the exercises they need to do.
So I think the rehab is, hugely important, in many ways more
important than the surgery.
the other thing that I do want to touch on is, the mental aspect of recovery.
it's a huge surgery.
It's a big, hit to your body and it's hard to recover from.
And, kids hit a lot of bumps along the way and, you need to recognize
that, some kids might need some help.
I think that, you know, having a sports therapist is a really
important part of the process as well.
and just recognizing the mental aspect of all this.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): I think that that's huge and it speaks a lot to what
is made available from Shriners Children's in being able to accomplish a lot of
those multidisciplinary approaches.
Thank you both for being with us today.
This has been really educational for me, and I hope for everyone
who's listening, we really, really appreciate your time today.
Dr Sean Waldron: Thanks so much.
Dr Jennifer Weiss: Thanks for
having us.
Dr Bob Underwood (Host): for more information, including the
full range of care disciplines.
Please visit shriners childrens.org
to hear more pediatric frontlines episodes.
Please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.