David Friedman, BS: Hello, This is Dr.
David Friedman, host of To You Good Health Radio.
What happens When Life doesn't go according to Plan When a
diagnosis changes everything?
When an injury ends a dream or the future you imagine vanishes
overnight, maybe you've experienced it yourself, a health crisis that
forced you to redefine who you are.
Or perhaps you're watching somebody love, navigate a transformative
issue that they've never asked for.
These moments can feel like the end of everything we know, but what if these
setbacks are actually the beginning of something bigger than we expected?
Our next guest is Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist who's
discovered something extraordinary.
Our brains are wired to resist change.
When we understand how identity evolves, especially through crisis,
we can tap into hidden power that transforms devastation into possibility.
If you've ever felt stuck, lost your sense of purpose, or maybe wondered who you are
on the other side of hardship, stay tuned.
Maya is in the house to show you how to turn your mess.
Into your message, and it all starts now.
Our next guest is a cognitive scientist, author and creator
and host of the award-winning podcast, A slight change of plans.
She served as a senior advisor in the Obama White House where she
founded and chaired their social and behavioral scientist team.
She was also the first behavioral science.
Advisor to the United Nations and served as a core member of Pete
Buttigieg debate preparation team during the 2020 presidential run.
She holds a PhD in cognitive psychology from Oxford University, where she
studied as a Rhodes Scholar, post doctorate Fellowship and cognitive
neuroscience from Stanford University.
Anna a BA from Yale University.
She's been profiled by the New Yorker, and featured on NPRs All Things
Considered CBS Mornings And the Today Show and National Geographics
Limitless with Chris Hemsworth.
The new book is called The Other Side of Change, who We Become
When Life Makes Other Plans.
Love that title.
Welcome to the show, Dr.
Maya Shakar.
Maya Shankar: Thank you so much for having me.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, welcome.
Now your book.
Tackle something we all face, but rarely understand how to
navigate devastating transitions.
What compelled you to write this book?
Maya Shankar: You know, I've had a lot of formative experiences with change and I
found it really scary, and I know a lot of other people find unexpected change.
Very scary, And in my moments of hardship.
I've so often heard the phrase that while you can't control what happens to you, you
can control your response to what happens.
And it's meant to be an empowering mantra.
But in my difficult moments, it is registered as a platitude.
You know, I'm like, how the heck am I supposed to actually do that?
There's no switch in my brain that I can just flip on, that will
suddenly make me feel more peaceful or hopeful, or more enlightened.
And so my goal with the other side of change was to give people a resource.
Actually help them think and feel differently about the
big changes in their lives.
And I did this by going on a quest to find the most extraordinary
stories of change that I could around the world and to pair that with
scientific insights and evidence-based strategies that all of us can use.
David Friedman, BS: That's so great.
I know our brains, you mentioned in your book, they're hardwired
to perceive change as a threat.
It's basically a survival mechanism, but the same protective instinct.
Can trap us.
What's a specific evidence-based cognitive strategy that maybe you
can share that can override our brain's default resistance to change?
Maya Shankar: Well, one of the big reasons why, we struggle with
change is that it's filled with a profound amount of uncertainty.
And research shows that we are not wired to enjoy uncertainty.
Our brains don't like it.
My favorite research study shows that we are more stressed when we're told
we have a 50% chance of receiving an electric shock than when we're told we
have a 100% chance of getting that shock.
And so we would rather be certain that a bad thing is gonna happen than to
have to grapple with any ambiguity.
many of the strategies I give in the book have to do with decreasing our need for
certainty, but then also giving people.
Access to strategies they can use to reclaim whatever control they do have.
Right?
Because at the end of the day, as humans, we really do love having
a firm grip of the steering wheel.
we really like knowing how, the story's gonna end.
I certainly do.
so I did wanna give people concrete advice that they could use too.
Get to the other side, feeling a little bit less anxious about change.
one quick strategy I'll share here is that we can often ruminate after a negative
change because we're dealing with so much uncertainty And so much anxiety.
And one way to do This is to do what psychologists call affect labeling.
And That is when you give your negative emotions, concrete labels.
So rather than just feeling a cloud of negative emotions, you give them specific.
Names, maybe it's anger, maybe it's envy, maybe it's jealousy, maybe it's anxiety.
Research shows that when we label our emotions, we shift our focus away from
being the emotion, feeling like we embody that negativity to just having
the emotion, And that can help us achieve what's called psychological distance.
It can help give us some space and some objectivity on the
problems we're facing so that we can see them with greater clarity.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah.
I love that you said, that 50% chance of something bad happening compared to
a hundred percent, we wouldn't know.
And it reminds me, I read a study that when someone says, I've got
good news and bad news for you, which one do you want first?
75% want the bad news.
Just tell me so I can prepare so it's so true how we're wired like that.
I know you blend this cutting-edge neuroscience with
deeply personal storytelling.
I love that.
Can you share maybe one transformation from the book that moved you
most And what did their journey teach you about human resilience.
Maya Shankar: I mean, one of my favorite stories is about a guy named Dwayne
and when he's 16, he gets sentenced to nine years in prison for a carjacking.
He committed and he had had such a promising future, And then, in an
effort to try to impress the boys in his neighborhood, he he did this awful
thing and, he had to pay the costs.
Now most of us know what it's like to feel a bunch of doors
closing in our lives, right?
It.
Might be an illness, it might be heartbreak, it might be an accident.
Any number of twists of fate can derail our future.
And for Dwayne, he actually became on the other side of this, a
world-renowned poet that speaks to the experiences of young boys and
men of color in the prison system.
what I loved about his story is that.
The thing that changed the game for him, the thing that led him onto a
different path was an encounter with a fellow prisoner who was deeply inspiring
to Dwayne in that he violated all of Dwayne's expectations about what you had
to be like in order to survive prison.
This guy he encountered was so deeply caring.
He taught the younger boys how to box to help them protect
themselves from violence in prison.
Would wake up an hour before count time to do 250 pushups.
He had a crisply ironed.
outfit every day.
Dwayne said that he carried himself like a man in uniform, And that he
taught him what it means to be lovely.
And this experience that Dwayne had is called moral elevation.
It's that warm fuzzy feeling we get in our chest when we witness someone
else's extraordinary actions, whether it's their kindness or self-sacrifice,
or their courage or resilience.
And what's so amazing about moral elevation is that it
doesn't just make us feel good.
It actually changes our brains.
It turns out that when we witness someone violating our expectations of what humans
are capable of in the best way possible, it can actually crack open our own
imagination of what we are capable of.
And it is exactly that.
That led Dwayne to start writing poetry in prison.
And now he's a Yale Law School graduate.
He's a MacArthur Genius Prize winner.
He has this incredible future, and I find it so heartening that small moments with.
Our fellow humans can inspire that kind of turn.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah.
Such a touching story.
That's great.
There's something I learned in biology that I'll share.
It profoundly shifted my perspective.
I learned that when a bone breaks and heals, it doesn't just return
to normal, it becomes stronger.
More calcium builds at that fractured site, making that heel bone tougher.
Then one that hasn't been broken.
And I think there's a powerful metaphor here.
When we break, we too can become stronger.
And I think you prove that in your book.
Share this for those that have lost maybe a core part of their identity,
maybe the athlete who can no longer walk, musician who can't play.
What's the first step in rebuilding a sense of self
rather than, You know, always me.
Oh, pity me.
What?
What should they do first?
Maya Shankar: Yeah, I've had those kinds of changes.
I mean, I was an aspiring concert violinist who was studying at ju.
As a little kid And then a hand injury ended.
Those dreams overnight, doctors told me that my career was over,
so I totally relate to that.
One strategy that I found very helpful is to expand my self-identity rather
than defining myself simply by what I do.
I try to expand my self-identity to include why I do that thing.
So to make this concrete, I asked myself, what is it that I loved about the violin?
It turns out emotional connection was at the root of my passion, and just because
I lost the violin didn't mean that I lost.
What led me to love it in the first place, that part of myself was fully intact
and I could use this insight, right, knowing that it was human connection
that drove me to chart out my next steps.
It could be a compass for me.
To help soften the blow and help me have a promising future.
And I would urge everyone who's listening to ask themselves what is their why?
Maybe it's a love of service.
Maybe it is having a creative outlet.
Maybe it's the thrill of, being alongside teammates, right?
maybe it is having, the joy of seeing yourself improve at something.
Whatever the why is.
That can be a very stable force in the face of change, and to help
make you feel like you haven't lost everything as a result of the change.
The why will still be there, and it can be a guide as you move forward.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, that's so great.
I've always believed that a lack of purpose is life's greatest
destroyer, and it's why so many people decline rapidly after retirement.
They spent half a century focusing just on their work as being
their reason for existing and.
Then they retire And then, it's all over.
When the job disappears, spark goes away.
What role does purpose play in your research on navigating change?
Maya Shankar: Yes.
Meaning and purpose is everything.
one of the most heartening findings from the research is that giving
back to other's being of serve.
Us to other's is one of the best ways for us to reclaim our sense of
meaning and purpose in the throes of a really difficult change.
And it's somewhat counterintuitive, right?
We would often think, oh, it's about self-care.
You know, that's where the answers are gonna be, but actually it's
thinking about other people and how we can be helpful to them.
That can really be the thing that unlocks us.
David Friedman, BS: so true.
I know your podcast, a slight change of plans won Apple's best show of the year
after interviewing hundreds of people about their life-changing moments.
I'm curious, were there any surprises, maybe some insights
that you found congruent across different stories that you heard?
Maya Shankar: One of the best insights that I have from writing my book,
the Other Side of Change And then hosting the podcast, is that most
of the experiences we have when it comes to change are, similar.
we often think that we're gonna find answers and stories that look just
like our own, but the argument that I'm making in the book is actually we
can learn so much from stories that look nothing like ours on the surface.
For example, one of the insights that I had was, I was interviewing a cancer
patient on one episode of a slight change of plans, And then I was interviewing
a woman who found out that her husband had cheated on her in another episode.
And they were both grappling with this feeling of betrayal, and they
had a lot more in common, in terms of their stories than stories that
might have looked more similar.
And so, one of the things I try to do with the other side of change is to include
a really diverse set of stories, right?
Heartbreak illness, loss of a dream, loss of a job, loss of memories.
but to really show that we are so much more connected than we think.
I'm hoping that readers read a story that they can hardly relate to, but then the
universal lesson that emerges from That is so compelling because it really does
relate to some aspect of their life.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, you mentioned the person that was cheated on, it
reminds me of the, rock group Chicago had that hit song where a man realizes
he found the love of his life.
Only because his previous relationship fell apart, And the lyrics goes,
if she would've been faithful, I would've missed out on you.
What a neat outlook.
It's such a powerful reminder that our detours can lead us
exactly where we need to be.
And let me ask you, so looking back on your own journey, do you think
your greatest achievements were born from your deepest disappointments?
As there a correlation there, do our valleys propel us
toward those mountaintops?
Maya Shankar: there's no squeaky clean answer here, right?
I would say that what I do feel confident about is.
While we might not have wanted the changes to happen to us, by and large, I found
that everyone I interviewed for the book was extremely grateful for the person
they became as a result of their change.
So they told me, you know, I would never invite this illness or this
heartbreak back into my life, but I do feel like I emerged with new
perspectives and abilities and, values and capabilities that I
might never have accessed otherwise.
I do feel that there are many moments in my life where.
Inflection points are what led to the most profound growth that led me to become
a different person on the other side.
And I am deeply grateful for those experiences because don't
think without them, that I would be the person I am today.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, so try no.
Resilience isn't just about bouncing back.
Your research actually reveals it's far more nuanced.
What does the science tell us about how resilient people navigate adversity
differently than those who just get stuck in their suffering and stay?
Maya Shankar: So resilience often has to do with the mindset shift,
which is remembering at the outset of a change that you will become a
different person on the other side is very liberating because it helps you
stay open to what the change can teach.
Chew rather than thinking of yourself as this like fixed entity right set
in stone that has no ability to grow.
And so I think the most resilient people are the ones that are
humble at the outset of change.
The ones that are curious, the ones that engage in a lot of self-reflection
to try to figure out what impact the change has had on them.
Those are the people that thrive the most.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, so trying.
Now we're living through an era of relentless change
and change scares people.
You got the AI disruption, political friction, ongoing health threats,
and how can we prepare ourselves for continuous rapid change where
we don't panic people, fear change.
Is there a way to build change stamina.
Maya Shankar: I think what I've tried to do is give people a guide
that they can use to preemptively build their change armor.
So I call this the, change survival kit, and it's it's at the end
of the other side of change.
And my hope is that they can use that as a companion, right?
It can be something that, helps them.
Weather changes big and small.
It can also help them get ahead of future changes, and it can also help them renew
their relationships with past changes.
David Friedman, BS: Yeah.
So Greg, I know you founded the White House Social and Behavioral Science team.
first of its kind, what were you trying to accomplish and how did behavioral
science translate into policy decisions affecting millions of Americans?
Maya Shankar: My goal was to use our best understanding of human behavior to
improve public policies and programs.
And so this was everything from helping people access
the free school lunch program.
this was helping veterans sign up to enroll in benefits programs,
helping student loan borrowers understand their options.
I'll just give you a quick example of one.
This little tweak we made that had a really outsize impact.
We were trying to get veterans to sign up for an educational and
employment benefit that we knew would help them as they transition
from military life to civilian life.
And not enough veterans had signed up, you know, there was low exposure.
And the VA had one email they were sending out about this program, and
they said, okay, Maya and team, you can change, whatever words you want.
that's the only budget we have, And we ended up changing just one word
in the email message Rather than telling veterans that they were
eligible for the program, we simply reminded them that they had earned
it through their years of service.
And that one word change led to a 9% increase in access
to the veterans program.
And This is actually an insight called the Endowment Effect.
This tweak is a nod to a behavioral economics principle called the
Endowment Effect, which says that we value things more when we feel that
we own them or have earned them.
I just love seeing how this really subtle cost-free change could lead to a
massive improvement in people's lives.
David Friedman, BS: That's great.
And the minute we have left, is there anything else you'd like to
share that we didn't cover today?
Maya Shankar: I just think that I've, ive.
Because of the experience of writing the other side of change,
I just feel so much more hopeful about the experience of change.
I actually entered the space because I'm really scared of change and do a
really terrible job of dealing with it.
And I'm hopeful that the strategies I outline in this book And the,
stories that readers will experience will help them in their own
moments of uncertainty and despair.
the wisdom from the people I interviewed have certainly helped me.
David Friedman, BS: Well, thanks so much for spending time with us today.
The book is called The Other Side of Change, who We Become
When Life Makes Other Plans.
You can get your book@mayashankar.com
and while there, check out her a Slight Change podcast.
You can follow her on Instagram at Dr.
Maya Shankar.
You can follow me on Facebook and X at Dr.
David Friedman.
On Instagram, I'm a Dr.
D Friedman.
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