Melanie (Host): Welcome to UF Health Med EdCast with UF Health Shan's Hospital.
I'm Melanie Cole, and today we are highlighting groundbreaking therapeutic
mRNA cancer vaccine research.
Joining me to discuss this exciting research is Dr.
Elias Sayer.
He's a pediatric hematologist-oncologist and a professor in the Department
of Neurosurgery at the University of Florida College of Medicine.
He's also a stop children's cancer, Bonnie r Freeman, professor of pediatric
oncology research in the UF departments of neurosurgery and pediatrics.
Dr.
Seor, thank you so much for joining us to discuss this very exciting topic.
as we get into this, I'd like you to explain a little bit about the
complexity of cancer, the ecosystem.
How is the field of mRNA cancer vaccines advancing the concept
of personalized cancer therapy?
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
Melanie, certainly.
Cancer is, very complex and, that complexity, is one of the real
grand challenges to cancer vaccines.
Cancer is not just, a bunch of cells that, divide, indiscriminately.
So a lot of people think of cancer as just exponential growth, 2 4 8, 16 32.
but in truth, cancer, is more than that.
tumors divide like that, but benign tumor is not the same as cancer.
Cancer is defined by its ability to invade, destroy tissue.
And also, cancer is not just cells.
It's an environment.
It's an entire ecosystem.
In this ecosystem, cancer has its own blood vessels.
Cancer has its own metabolism.
Cancer has its own immune system in many contexts.
An immune system that doesn't fight the cancer or see it as foreign, an
immune system that sees the cancer as self or a wound, that it has to heal.
That healing environment that a clumsy immune response is creating,
actually facilitates the cancer growth.
And so you have chronic inflammation in these tumors that
facilitates the tumor growth.
Everything I mentioned is a part of an ecosystem.
That is extraordinarily challenging for a cancer vaccine to work.
Even if a vaccine elicits an immune response, that immune response often
cannot penetrate this environment, survive in an environment like this,
and even if it could, the cancer as it's doing, all of this continues to evolve.
Evolves away from the immune system.
And these are significant challenges for a cancer vaccine.
And in my mind, one of the major reasons why, vaccines haven't worked,
for a really, really long time.
But it's also my hope that mRNA will overcome these obstacles.
Melanie (Host): Dr.
Seor, you've described this work as both deeply scientific and deeply personal.
Tell us a little bit about the moment when this approach to the mRNA Cancer
vaccines first felt possible, and why did you believe this platform could achieve
this, that prior efforts really could not.
What did you see in those early models that told you that this wasn't
just another incremental advance?
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah, a great question.
So mRNA, we've been studying mRNA for, 10, 15 years now.
our group and really we've made some pretty remarkable
discoveries, in that time that.
Really have allowed us to believe this can be the solution, to getting
cancer vaccines, or I should say therapeutic cancer vaccines to work.
And when I say therapeutic cancer vaccines, I mean treatment
vaccines, treating something after it's already started.
And one of those things that we discovered was.
mRNA could reprogram these ecosystems.
mRNA can create an environment even in the cancer with a single dose that could
reprogram the tumor microenvironment from a, chronic inflammatory response that
facilitates the tumor growth to a response that actually starts fighting the cancer.
And the fact that this could happen as rapidly as we observed, within
24 hours of PEth dogs with brain cancer, as an example, within 24 hours
of a single dose that we could see in these tumors, the immune system
starting to wake up against cancer.
That was very heartening for us.
so much so that it created this idea of using mRNA as a universal tool.
We discovered this reprogramming, this rapid reprogramming could
happen with nonspecific mRNA vaccines, meaning of an mRNA that
wasn't even specific to the tumor.
And that idea of a universal cancer vaccine is something that I think can now
be created and engineered through mRNA.
But number two, we found that personalized vaccines, if the
mRNA is specific to the cancer.
It works even better.
And the beauty of mRNA, unlike a lot of cancer vaccine platforms, is it can adapt.
You can update the vaccine.
To be, more and more relevant to the cancer.
Meaning you make a vaccine when you first biopsy a tumor, but then you
can make updated vaccines if that tumor were to recur or come back.
Meaning your vaccines can evolve as the cancer is evolving, And in
that way you can now provide almost an updated vaccines that outcompete
the evolution of the cancer.
And so that's something that can happen really through the groundbreaking
power of mRNA, that you can, build these to target as many things as you
want and update them in a way that can be done through a single approach.
Melanie (Host): That's absolutely fascinating and really, really exciting.
And Dr.
Sayer, so this exciting observation you were just discussing that even a vaccine
not specific to any particular tumor or virus, as long as it's mRNA vaccine,
could lead to tumor specific effects.
What patient populations or tumor types characteristics appear most promising
for this approach at this stage?
Elias Sayour, MD: this idea of a universal cancer vaccine really
started in our lab, this discovery that again, something completely irrelevant
to the tumor, could wake it up.
And could sensitize response to other immunotherapies, like
immune checkpoint inhibitors.
we saw that in, mouse models of melanoma.
This was before the pandemic.
Now the pandemic allowed us to ask a really interesting
question, And that question is.
If a non-specific mRNA vaccine can wake up the immune system and sensitize response
to checkpoint inhibitors, what happens to melanoma patient's and non-small cell
lung cancer patient's who are receiving another non-specific mRNA vaccine?
This being the sars CV two, the CVID 19 mRNA vaccines within a hundred days of
also receiving conventional immunotherapy with immune checkpoint inhibitors.
And looking backwards, which is an important distinction.
We're looking backwards in these studies.
These are retrospective studies that have to be validated in prospective
studies, forward-looking studies.
But looking backwards, we found a near doubling in survival outcome of
patient's receiving the COVID-19 vaccine.
Receiving conventional immunotherapy of immune checkpoint inhibitors within
a hundred days of those vaccines.
And you're doubling in survival for patient's with skin cancer, melanoma and
lung cancer, non-small cell lung cancer.
So, we've gone back and even shown that the COVID vaccine works in
our mouse models to sensitize response to checkpoint inhibitors.
This all basically tells us that perhaps we already have a universal
cancer vaccine in our midst.
That can improve response.
This being the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine.
Now it's worth mentioning the COVID-19 vaccine was not
designed specifically for cancer.
And even if that were to not work in forward-looking trials, we still
believe we can make a universal vaccine that works much better.
In waking up the immune response and sensitizing response to checkpoint
inhibitors, one vaccine, one master vaccine for all patient's.
But if indeed, these forward looking trials actually look promising, meaning
the COVID-19 vaccine works to awaken the immune response, You know, we think
that could really transform the field.
Melanie (Host): Wow, that's unbelievable.
Now, immune activation along those lines raises safety concerns
What's reassured you most about the tolerability of this approach?
Elias Sayour, MD: I think that's really the most exciting thing
about the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine.
I mean, this has been, deployed, hundreds of millions of times, over
and over again, and really that safety profile that we have from so many
patient's who've been dosed with this, that gives us some confidence in this
approach, as a, what we believe would be a very safe way of activating the
immune response in a universal manner.
At the same time, we have to run the trials to really get a really
good indication of comprehensive safety in conjunction with these
immune checkpoint inhibitors.
That's why those trials are important to run, but we're certainly heartened
by the safety data, in trials that have been conducted to date
for, infectious COVID prevention.
Now if that vaccine doesn't work and needs to be engineered to
be even stronger, for cancer.
we think that's an approach that could work, but then also when you're activating
the immune response in an even stronger manner, there are more side effects
that people might be at-risk for.
And, uh, Those are things that we're very cautious about.
That's why we have to run these forward looking trials and, make
sure that these things are safe.
and why we're heartened that the COVID vaccine could be an answer because of
its safety profile, but ultimately.
We have to run these trials to know for certain.
Melanie (Host): So from a clinician standpoint, Dr.
Sayer, how complex is it to deliver this therapy compared with
other advanced immunotherapies?
How does the delivery system of specifically mRNA vaccines
influence their efficacy and safety in this type of cancer therapy?
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah.
Great question.
Right now, the COVID vaccine we know is, intramuscular.
again, if that works, that's.
We think that could be a, safe, opportunity to non-specifically
activate the immune response to awaken it, for response to immunotherapy.
but if it doesn't work, we think there are ways of making it stronger.
One way to do That is to maybe give an intravenous vaccine, and maybe a
vaccine that's designed to elicit an even stronger non-specific immune response.
We've certainly made our own vaccines here at the University of Florida.
an onion like design of mRNA, aggregates that we inject right into the bloodstream
that, can be very, very powerful, in activating the immune response.
The dog studies I mentioned earlier were.
Was that vaccine, again, a non-specific vaccine that can reprogram the
brain tumors in less than 24 hours.
But when you do that, There are also more side effects.
There are, risks of cytokine response syndrome.
That's where you activate a lot of signals of the immune response.
That can cause fever, cause muscle pain, can it cause drops in blood
pressure, even cause increases in oxygen requirements in some patient's.
So Those are all.
potential concerns and why?
If we, started using more aggressive approaches in activating
the immune response, we think those could work even better.
But because of these side effects, these have to be really done
in very controlled studies.
Melanie (Host): So as this work and we're looking retroactive Lee, as
you say to those studies and as this work emphasizes personalization, Dr.
Sayer, how challenging is it, do you think, practically to design
patient specific mRNA vaccines at this scale that we're looking forward to?
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah, another great question.
Anytime you personalize something, there is increased cost.
There is increased complexity.
Most importantly, increased time, time being the most valuable
resource that patient's have.
And so if it's taking an extra two to six weeks to make a personalized vaccine,
that's time that the cancer has to grow.
That's also why I believe so much in giving something universally at
first, waking up the immune response as rapidly as possible, which can
buy time for that personalization.
But as you've stated, yes, it, does take time.
It takes us here at the University of Florida about six weeks right
now to make personalized vaccines.
But I will tell you that I think that timeline is going to shrink.
I do see an era where we can make personalized vaccines almost instantly.
I see the future of mRNA akin to that of a keyboard by the patient's
bedside, where you type in the sequence that you want, And then out the
other end of a box comes the vaccine.
I do see that future, and mRNA is really in the early phases of being advanced
into patient's with all sorts of diseases, not just cancer, but for autoimmunity,
for neurodegenerative conditions.
As a gene therapy And the ability to customize, a therapy just by changing
the sequence, I think we're gonna get much quicker and better at doing that.
And as we cut down the time to personalization, I also think we'll cut
down the, cost, and some of the complexity around this, hopefully to the point
where it may even be a bedside therapy.
But right now there is certainly time, associated with making these, so much
so that I, do think the universal approach, as a bookend to personalization,
is a really important step forward.
Melanie (Host): Wow.
And it, I mean, as I see it and listen to you possibly even into
preventive oncology, and I mean, it is groundbreaking as we say now.
One of the things I was thinking about when I was writing these
questions is how do you, Dr.
Se, or balance the scientific rigor.
We're discussing here today, the importance, the technicality of
it all, with the urgency that patient's and families feel around
these breakthrough therapies.
People with melanoma, people with non-small cell lung cancer,
people with these cancers where this type of immunotherapy could
really be, beneficial save lives.
How do you balance that, need it must make you in the lab every day go,
okay, we, we have to get this right.
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah.
This is a very hard question.
Something, uh.
I do grapple with every day.
we in the lab have to grapple with, the sense of urgency to move this forward
as quickly as possible, but also to take the appropriate time that we need to make
sure the studies are done rigorously, to make sure that we're putting our
best foot forward, to make sure it's done as safe, and as well as possible.
it's hard.
know, I'm a pediatric oncologist, so seeing children suffering and dying,
of diseases that we think that we can, improve through these types of
therapies through advancing these trials.
I mean, it's hard when those trials aren't there yet.
all I can tell you is that it is an incredible motivator as you've
mentioned, in helping us, move forward as quickly as possible.
but we have to sometimes, go slow to go fast, and I have to remind myself
that, that going slow, taking time now means we'll be able to accelerate
tomorrow, that we have a responsibility to the patient's of tomorrow, to the
people that haven't been diagnosed yet, to make sure that we give them the
best chance of having a good outcome.
and if we make a mistake now that compromises everything.
So, it's hard.
Believe me, I, I wanna be in clinical trials for everything and, help
especially all these children.
but we also have to make sure that this work has legs for, all patient's.
And that this technology shows promise for other researchers and
other people doing work that really mandates, I think, a strong foundation.
So, we're trying to balance that.
We certainly don't wanna take any extra time than we need, but I also
wanna make sure we take the necessary time to make sure the studies are
done correctly And that we answer the most fundamental questions.
Melanie (Host): You're a good man and a patient one too.
This is such important work you're doing.
And finally, Dr.
Sayer, as both a physician and a scientist, what advice would you give
young clinicians, scientists trying to bridge that gap between bench
science and real patient impact?
And for trainees and early career physicians listening, what do you feel
this work teaches us about the future of physician scientists in oncology?
And if you and I were to revisit this conversation in a few years.
What do you hope we'll be talking about differently?
Elias Sayour, MD: Yeah.
What I would tell people it's important to be patient as you described,
but also have a willingness to challenge existing paradigms and.
When you have a willingness to challenge existing paradigms and to belief, I
use this word all the time, belief, belief that it's possible, then I
do see that as the groundswell of something great that can be created.
But to create something great not only requires, that belief And that vision.
But also a willingness to take all of those small steps that
are necessary and make sure every one of those steps are correct.
And There are times where we don't take the right steps.
There are times where maybe we've moved off the right track, but it's important
sometimes even to take those steps to learn where the right track is.
And that again, that's where patience comes in and understanding that even
our failures are teachers for success.
Certainly, I think if we try to see, the end of the journey through each
and every one of these steps and work as hard as we can to ensure every one
of these steps is as rigorous and as well done, then I think we're getting
closer and closer to that destination.
it's hard, I think, for junior people who, see suffering, especially
clinicians who see suffering, which is so significant in the clinic and
know how long this journey takes.
But I do think that journey is, we have to get that right and it takes time.
And it's important to not only be patient, but to believe that we're
taking the steps that we need to make the world a better place.
And, the only thing I would add to That is community working with other's,
other's who challenge us, other's who, bring other layers of innovation to this.
That's what creates synergy.
Synergy to me is critical.
One plus one has to equal one 11 for us to do something
extraordinary like cur cancer.
But I think the willingness to, believe the willingness to take every one of
these steps, the willingness to, to create synergy through collaboration
and working with And for other's, all of That is part of the secret ingredients,
I would say towards, that greatness that we're all trying to achieve.
Melanie (Host): This has probably been one of the most fascinating.
Shows that I've done in a very long time.
And Dr.
Sayer, I can't thank you enough.
This is exciting, exciting research, and a very exciting
time in your field specifically.
And if anybody can do it, you are certainly the man to do it with your
team and I thank you so much for joining us and sharing this research,
letting us know what's on the horizon because it is a time of advancements and
technology and things are moving quickly.
And you're right there at the heart of it.
So thank you so much.
And to learn more about this and other healthcare topics at UF
Health Chance Hospital, please visit innovation dot uf health.org
and to listen to more podcasts from our experts, you can
always visit UF health.org/med
matters.
That concludes today's episode of UF Health Med EdCast with
UF Health Shans Hospital.
I'm Melanie Cole.
Thanks so very much for joining us today.